There's been outrage amongst many people claiming the BBC pay ethnic minorities more then white people

[cakeorwine]

BBC report linked here

Pay gap report

And here's one of the tables that was used to justify the claim.

Telegraph report here. I've gifted it to you

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/bdb86271401b1980

So....what do you believe? Are the BBC paying ethnic minorities more?

Feel free to look at the links to make up your own mind.

I would be interested to know how confident you are in your belief and what do you think the main reason is for that level of confidence

The Telegraph thinks so

"The BBC pays white staff less on average than their ethnic minority colleagues in every pay band bar one, figures show.
Black, Asian, mixed and other ethnic minority employees received 13.2pc higher median pay than white workers in the corporation’s lowest pay band, and 5.3pc more in the highest pay band.
White employees’ median pay was higher – by 0.6pc – in just one out of seven pay scales. This is despite the BBC’s commitment to “fair, clear and competitive” pay."

I've also attached the top comments and a picture of The SImpsons for some reason......

The comments

"Imagine the outrage if it was the other way around 🙄"

"Yep, institutional racism is alive and well in the BBC!"

"This is racism pure and simple. I am appalled"

"Some animals are more equal than others"

"Of course it is. But like most things there are two tiers of legality in this country. There isnt a judge or tribunal anywhere that would convict in favour of white men."

"Two tier Britain is real. And it’s terrifying."

"Stop paying the Licence Fee.
Stop funding the enemy"

"I see it all the time. I love Escape To The Country but they always interview locals that are non British and it is obvious that they are making a point"

"So if you’re fat, trans, and black you’re on a winner"

"indeed all the white employees should take them to a tribunal ... where is their union when you actually need it?"

"The "Equality Act" is a misnomer. Being normal is not a protected characterstic."

Everybody knows that when statistics are presented they are not all they seem.

And yes this is monetised, it isn't a free service. We have seen a huge increase in the rage inducing threads recently, more so than usual.

I'd start with the data first before carrying out any investigations.

Personally I'm curious to understand why the LGBT pay gap is so massively in favour of LGBT employees in the Most Senior Leadership band

"Outrage as Senior LGBT leaders are paid nearly 10% more than straight Leaders at the BBC"

I bet it's one person

@cakeorwine Debbie is well known for taking the mick. The MN Titania McGrath. Waste of time.

speaking of waste of time, the amount of data you put in there… the amount of explanation… basically if anyone actually believes the Clickbait, they just need to be told that that isn’t what is actually happening and the data is collected in aggregate.

I don’t think anybody’s going to read that explanation in the first place.

Wouldn’t it be nice if they didn’t collect those statistics?

I try not to fill in that stuff. My late father made a point of not filling it in or just lying. I don’t know how a mixed race person is expected to fill it in anyway tbh. We’ve been wanting them to fuck off with their CRT shit for a while now.

I’m old enough to remember when things were just normal!

So I think you're saying that asking people to think about how statistics can be manipulated by the media to generate outrage and to provide a relevant real life current example is a bad thing because it generates clicks?

If that's not what you believe, then I apologise.

Is that what you believe?

Did I say the words 'good' or 'bad' anywhere at all?

You are making wild assumptions again, in order to rage bait people.

You really need to try harder. People are wise to this shit.

And your 'I'm engaging with someone who thinks x' is someone taking the right royal piss out of you. Hope that helps.

Who are the many people you refer to, @cakeorwine?

So what do you believe is the issue you have with this post?

Congratulations @cakeorwineon a very clear explanation of the way statistics are manipulated by the media. This reflects very badly on the Telegraph, Daily Mail and others who are deliberately trying to stir up hate and make the country a more divided, antagonistic, unhappy place to be.

I’m aware that the left wing press is happy to use similar methods to support their agenda, but I’m less worried about the consequences there.

The many people who will have read the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, GB News, Daily Express, the top postings on social media, Facebook posts

If you ask Chat GPT, it's a more nuanced answer

"Yes, in some respects — but the BBC’s figures need a little context. The BBC’s latest published ethnicity pay-gap figures show that, on average, ethnic-minority employees earn slightly more than white employees in some comparisons, but this does not mean every ethnic-minority employee is paid more or that the BBC pays people more simply because of their ethnicity.
The key distinction is between an ethnicity pay gap (the difference in average earnings between groups) and unequal pay (paying people differently for doing the same or equivalent work)."

https://chatgpt.com/share/6acb4953-782c-83ed-8c94-5a110664c622

But on Google AI, it's less nuanced

What both AI models have missed is the data that shows white people as a group earn more - and even ChatGPT smart mode didn't get that or mention SImpsons Paradox

The many people who will have read the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, GB News, Daily Express, the top postings on social media, Facebook posts

Which appears to be you. So you are talking about yourself?

Thanks

It's also an attempt to ask people how they form their beliefs and how people who want to change their minds can use psychological techniques to get that person to change their mind

It can be used with someone who is Pro Life.

You need to ask them what they believe about abortion

Listen to them and DON'T say you disagree even if you do

Clarify with them what you think their belief is and then ask them how strong that belief is.

Ask them how they formed that number and take it from there

This is an example of someone asking people if they believe abortion should be legal one day before the due date

You can see he doesn't argue, or get angry. He listens, reflects back and explores their thinking.

It all comes from a book called How Minds Change

How Minds Change: The New Science of Belief, Opinion and Persuasion

David McRaney's book, How Minds Change: The New Science of Belief, Opinion and Persuasion, explores the science behind how beliefs are formed and how they can be modified.

The book is based on McRaney's own experiences and research, which include interviews with psychologists, neuroscientists, and individuals from various belief systems. It delves into the latest research in psychology and neuroscience, providing insights into the formation of thoughts, perceptions, and beliefs. McRaney's approach is both optimistic and illuminating, offering practical strategies for influencing others and understanding their beliefs.

The book is praised for its engaging narrative and McRaney's ability to bridge the gap between science and personal experience, making it a valuable resource for anyone interested in the intricacies of human thought and belief.

It talks how people escape cults, far right or far left thinking, etc

Well worth a read

Is it your view that people shouldn't be reading such media outlets as they are known for manipulating their readers and presenting a biased view of the world?

If not, what are you suggesting?

Thanks

There's another example here

Just because one group earns more on average within a pay band doesn’t mean they’re being paid more because of their ethnicity.

People do different jobs, have different experience and sit at different points on salary scales.

Could discrimination be happening? Possibly, but these figures alone don’t prove it. You'd need to see a comparison of people doing the same jobs and their performance ratings/reviews before making that judgement.

If the figures are correct, I’d want to know more about the underlying causes.

Is it that black and minority ethnic employees are, on average, spending more time on a single pay grade than their white counterparts? And that this is why they’re paid more within a pay band? And if so, why? Are they not progressing to higher grades at the same rate as white employees? If that’s the case, is it that they’re applying for promotions but not being successful at the same rate? Or are they less likely to put themselves forward for promotion until they feel fully ready / competent, compared with white colleagues?

It’s very similar to the kind of analysis that’s necessary when an organisation identifies a gender pay gap. If there’s a cultural issue, address it. If there’s direct discrimination at play, tackle that.

Again, I have made no claims about whether anyone should read or not read anything.

You said you were talking about people who did X and Y and it would appear that, due to you posting links to X and Y, to be one of the people you said had read X and Y.

Unless you are saying you are just posting them without having read them.

Not that I care, you are literally doing what X and Y hoped would happen. Directing people to X and Y.

So box ticked i guess.

Wouldn’t be surprised. It’s so BBC

I am trying to explore how people form a belief.

Personally I believe it's useful to understand how people form their beliefs. I am subscribed to a number of Far Right people on various social media platforms and read papers such as the Mail and the Telegraph

I believe that's a good thing to do. Other people might well have a different view

Can I check your belief?

Do you believe that the BBC pays ethnic minority staff more?
If so, how confident are you in that belief on a scale of 1 to 100?

If I am wrong in that belief, then I apologise

I mean it’d believe it from the bbc a hundred times more than id believe it from most other large corporations

And can I ask what led you to that belief?

How did you form that opinion?

Thanks

Surely you need an investigation to gather and validate data?

They have the data already. It's what they used to prepare the report.

So they need to look at that and analyse it.

I'd do a bubble graph for each band showing the distribution of pay of white employees and ethnic minority employees.

That will show 2 things

The number of different employees - you'd just use 2 colours
The spread of data. You'd probably see the employees distributed randomly across the pay band

This is an example although clearly it's not pay

Imagine orange is female and blue is male

You can see there are far more females than males.

A lot of women earn $80m
The rest earn $65m
As for the men, most earn $40m
There's some poor men who earn $25m
And a similar amount who earn $50m

Clearly there's something going on here.
Are the men being discriminated against?
Are the women just better at their job?
Are they doing different jobs so the women just happen to be doing a role that pays more?

I work in data analysis. It's so easy to get all these variables so you can then dice and slice to see what's going on,

I'd collect
Name (but that should be anonymised and given a number so only HR knows who it is)
Gender (that's going to annoy people)
Sex (assigned at birth)
Age
Employed since
Time at that level
Pay level
Last pay rise
Bonuses
Manager
Last assessment
Last promotion
Competency grading
Department
Job Role
Ethnicity
Disabled
LGBT
Working Class background

Most of those things will already be available on the HR systems so you just link the 2 systems

Then you can ask
How do the departments compare in pay levels?
Do any departments seem to be under or over represented with particular groups?
In a department, are managers doing assessments and are they being fair with awarding pay rises and bonuses?

eg Does Bob in car sales only employ males and then just gives bonuses to his mates?

Is there any issues you can see in pay distribution?
Is anyone just coasting along without wanting promotion?
Is anyone being looked over? eg At the company for years but has only had a few pay rises?

Is Senior management top heavy with Straight white middle class males ?

That's what a good data analyst can do.
Make sure the data is collected well, there's no gaps in the data (many people refuse to say their sexuality or gender identification), clean the data up and then analyse it.

If you did the Seniior Leadership LGBT pay at the BBC, I bet you'd just see a few LGBT people in there and can identify their pay.

How it's presented is entirely up to the agenda of the company.

I didn't get a job as a school data manager because they asked me to analyse the SEN performance in a class and they only had 3 pupils, I said that's too small a sample size to draw any conclusions.

Simple numbers and simple averages don't tell you anything and can really deceive you. I hate using them

When I first started my role, we were surveying clients. The Senior Staff got very excited with an 80% satisfaction rating and were desperate to share it on social media. I had to tell them that it meant nothing as we only interviewed 20 people. I said we should wait till the end of the year to get enough people or do a rolling 12 month mean. What I did show them was the bubble graph so we could see we had a good amount of people who were very satisfied and about 20% who were extremely dissatisfied. We then looked at those people to see what we were doing poorly

I changed their attitude to data analysis

I haven't studied the data, but my first instinctive response on hearing that whites are paid less 'in every pay band', was to think a likely reason is that minorities stay in the bands longer, i.e. are promoted less quickly, and thereby more likely to reach the top of their band.

This is why I like More or Less. They are quite good usually at delving into things.

A lot of clickbaity/divisive stuff doesn't even have to map neatly onto left/right stereotypes. I can remember ages ago a maddening headline about the amount of leftover chicken each household throws away equating to a huge amount of chickens every year and More or Less pointing out for this to be true each household would have to be throwing 4 chickens in the bin every week. Newspapers really love catchy scientific looking "reports" that are anything but.