Is being a fantasist a ‘condition’? Or is it just good old fashioned lying?

[franes]

Thinking about the Jason Arday story this week and also thinking about 3 other people I know who have been involved in something similar. It’s got me wondering if this is some kind of diagnosable condition or is it just a case of these people lying to impress but then getting in so deep, the lies have to keep on getting bigger and bigger?

I once got pulled into something like this with a long time family friend. I wasn’t close to her (she was close to my cousin) but I’d see her at family gatherings.

Several years back, she rang me and started telling me she’d secured a book deal with a major publisher. Turns out she’d had this secret life as a high profile ‘call girl’ and had written a memoir which was about to be launched. She wanted some advice (and contacts) due to the field I work in. I had no reason to disbelieve her so I offered to help but said I’d need to see/read the book first. It then started to get a bit weird - although she said the book was about to be launched, apparently it wasn’t printed yet. Something felt off and when I spoke to my cousin she said ‘oh she does this kind of thing - it’s very unlikely to be true’. Turns out over the years she’d also claimed to have had cancer, been a victim of DV, lost a child to SIDS, been trafficked and also apparently had 3 degrees. There was loads more too.

To the best of my knowledge she wasn’t scamming people for money - she just made up stories. Had a responsible job too and apparently didn’t do this at work - but outside of work, no tale was too tall.

Wonder if anyone else has met someone like this? Could it be done kind of condition (something like munchausens) or is it just that some people live in a fantasy world and don’t care who they lie to?

I know of 2 other people who did something similar too - one of them did eventually go to prison (after scamming someone out of some money).

I can think of 3 people I’ve known who are fantasists. Of course, at first I believed their stories, then I started wondering how both x & y could be true - as the stories started contradicting each other. Eventually I realised it was extremely unlikely that each person had lived through all the drama they purported to have experienced. I then stopped believing anything they said and distanced myself from them. Have you seen/read Billy Liar?

I know several, all from the same family. Very weird, especially once you realise when it's happening in real time. I used to believe everything they told me. No idea if it's a symptom of a condition.

My Dad met another one years ago. This guy moved to the same town and told everyone he was opening a factory in the town. He had architects plans for the site he was going to build on and he ever went so far as to rent an office in the same building the job centre was in, holding ‘interviews’ for workers. He bragged about this in the pub to a woman who turned out to be a local journalist and she smelt a rat. None of it was true and the site he was supposedly building on had already been bought by a retailer.

She rang him for a comment before she printed the story and he upped sticks and left literally overnight. Again, he didn’t seem to be scamming people for money so just don’t see the point!

I think some people just have a weaker grasp of reality, get caught up in the moment and say something that's rubbish. Obviously it's dishonest if they know what they're doing and gain by it but I've known people say all manner of odd things and it hasn't felt dishonest at all.

I worked with a woman who seemed to want to test how much we would believe! Her tales started fairly run of the mill but then got more and more wild and peculiar. All the famous people she had in her family and the amazing and powerful jobs she had done, yet now working part time in an admin role in a very boring office.

If I did know someone like this I would have no qualms in calling them out for it. Why don’t people confront them?

I think you get lots of different reasons.

My dd when younger used to get herself so tangled up in reality and make believe she really could struggle with separating them.
So that's one level: Where they genuinely believe them. It's really hard to tell because to them they're telling the truth. If she had seen fairies in the garden then she would have a full story.

I've known others who tell fantastic stories about how wonderful they are and how everyone thinks they're wonderful and what they do is totally amazing. When they flew Concorde, having never flown before, to save the rainforests from being chopped down and the glaciers from melting in one day and arrived back, with a failed engine having to do the best crash landing ever seen as the head of the RAF said, and the entire of Heathrow staff on their knees worshiping them.... and even the moon did a twirl in excitement.
I'm not sure if they believe it but even when it's totally ridiculous, people hold back from challenging them, so they keep telling it. My observation is they think they deserve the admiration so it's only getting them what they deserve.

Similar, you get the people who know it isn't true but are using the fact that people won't dare challenge them to boost themselves up and push others down. There's a lot of cross-over with the people above.

Then a milder version of the above. People who like to tell a good story. Often more for laughs than admiration. They know it's not totally true - there's normally some truth in it, but they're just embellishing to make a nice story. I guess a lot of us do that to a certain extent.
I mean, "I caught the wrong bus, and when I was running for the next I fell" is boring but "I caught the number three bus and realised I'd got on the one going the wrong way. The driver told me if he dropped me at the Beachhead roundabout then I could cross over and be just in time for the one coming the other way. I was in such a hurry I slipped down the steps and fell down them and bumped down one by one with my skirt over my head and showing my pants to the world" makes a better story, even if you were wearing shorts that day.

And lastly you get the people who get tangled up. "Oh what a web we weave, when we try to deceive" as my granny would say. So one lie leads to another.
I remember once at Brownies playing a game. Leader would call out a question (eg "who has a birthday in April" and if that applied to you, you tried to get the ball, and the one who got the ball won a point. Well I'd had loads and loads where I couldn't try to get the ball, and decided that I'd go for the next one whatever the question, because I was slow and wouldn't get it anyway, but it would be more fun to try and get it.
"Who did some shopping for someone else today?"
And I ran towards the ball with half the pack... whereupon the ball hit someone's foot and ended up right in my hands. I couldn't have not taken it without being obvious. So I then made up a story about how I'd gone to buy a toy car for my brother, and he wanted a blue one and I could only get green or red and....

And that's what I was suspecting the Cambridge chap was. He'd got more and more tangled in it, and couldn't back down without the whole lot crashing down with him in the centre.
However with the digging in, I think he's more likely one of the knowing it's true and making use of people not challenging.

Because generally it's more trouble than it's worth. Imagine your work colleague is telling you some story and and you feel it's embellished. Are you going to call them out and risk an HR visitation or just nod politely? Or you get chatting to a stranger who you'll never see again. What's the point?

Obviously you wouldn’t be able to check anything if a stranger was telling you daft lies but I would with a colleague and definitely challenge them, HR or not.

My DDad told me he was a habitual liar when he was young. He just got into the habit and found it an easy way to get what he wanted. This caused great consternation to my painfully honest grandparents. Dad got to his twenties, realised it was immature, and stopped...

...or so he said. But I think he did as he was very reliable, just a bit emotionally distant.

Arday reminds me of Jeffrey Archer who, I recall, lied his way into his first job by saying he had a masters degree, and that took him on a trajectory all the way into Cabinet until he was caught for perjury. I suppose, unlike my father, they never grew out of it.

If it's say something that happened in their private life you can't know, however. If they're lying about something at work, well, you may have the headache of having to do something.

I had a colleague who quickly picked up a reputation for being a fabulist. Someone did eventually call him out on something but he produced an online article that corroborated what he said happened to him. But eventually it turned it he was a massive bullshitter. Just not about that!!

If it helps, the story in my original post was slightly edited so it’s not so recognisable but she was in a regulated profession and because I felt that some of her stories were very harmful to others, I reported her. It was taken seriously.

I guess the impacts are the same whether they’re fanatalists or plain old liars.

i had a friend who lied alll the time, it was sort of endearing but she’s def got something going on. It was more a fantasy life than harmful lies

I in my experience it often starts at a very young age. Although I’m sure a lot of people grow out of it. I mean little kids often have a vivid imagination, read and watch books and tv with a fully developed fantasy world etc and like to dress up or say they are spider man or whatever. But then for others it subtly changes. Maybe it originally comes from day dreaming? There were definitely a few kids that always lied I came across as a kid.

Maybe some people who imagine that they will do whatever job, live in whatever way when they grow up find it hard to work out how to achieve it practically when it comes to the crunch about their lives and just carry on with the fantasy? There are plenty of people who dabble in different business ideas to make money but none of it comes together. And their, you might describe, grandiose ideas are just ideas.

I don’t know if that is likely.

There is a condition, Pseudologia Fantastica.

Pathological lying - Wikipedia

What Is Pseudologia Fantastica? Pathological Lying Explained - ScienceInsights

I suspect it's a sign of poor mental health and deep insecurities, rather than a specific condition. People's behaviour boiled down is really just repeating the patterns that have worked for you in the past. If as a kid lying met your emotional needs better than the truth (maybe getting more attention or getting noticed when you wouldn't otherwise, maybe by avoiding trouble or abuse) then why wouldn't a kid go down that path. It's so damaging though imo. If the kid is stuck in a world of their own lies that it actively prevents them forming good healthy relationships in reality, then pushing them further into the need for the lies.

But I guess we all have our crap. Part of being an adult is paying attention to that crap and fixing it as best as possible. So I'd say somewhere in the middle, a bit more towards 'good old fashioned lying'!

Someone who’s a ‘fantasist’, ‘fabulist’, ‘bullshitter’ ‘storyteller’ etc etc isn’t the slightest bit unwell but just likes to seek approval or notoriety or comment. They might be embellishers or plain old liars. But there’s nothing mentally unfit about them.

The same goes for frauds. The difference with them is material benefit from the lies.

People who are mentally unsound and truly believe they won an Olympic gold or are married to Brad Pitt or are Marie Antoinette are few and far between. If they commit crimes because of their delusions they are criminally insane.

We ascribe mental illness far too easily these days.

We do have to be careful not to attribute to pathology what should be properly be attributed to being a dickhead. Or an opportunist.

I've met 2 potentially 3. One someone who worked for me, made up quite upsetting lies about her mum's health and also winning big competitions. One my bils ex. Despite being a very ordinary(worked at British Gas)and not terribly well educated woman she had been headhunted by MI5 and was off to Oxford. Bil was moving with her and she had secured him a high paying office job. Despite him not actually knowing anything about it .
I suspect a relatives newish gf is too. Keeps telling him they are off to exotic places then at last minute there's a close family member's illness.

@MargaretThursdayhow has your DD turned out?

I have a primary aged DC who has always told stories. He has an incredible imagination and we joke that he lives in a different plane of reality to the rest of us.

When he was smaller he would tell stories about his teacher etc. and we’d call him out on it and taught him that though telling stories could be fun, he had to be clear between what was real and what was made up for fun, otherwise it’s lying. And he did get better in that respect.

But I’ve caught him spinning fantasy to his friends as real events. (And again called him out on it).

He has fantastic imaginative play.

When it comes to bare faced lies he’s surprisingly transparent. (“Have you brushed your teeth?”, “…yes?”, “go and brush them”) and doesn’t often try it on. But the fantasy is still spilling out with others.

We’re trying to channel his skills positively, but I worry about him turning into some of the characters people have talked about here.

She's an actress! Well musical theatre mostly. Channels it into that.

No, she doesn't do this any more. She stopped around secondary school age. Probably what is left goes more into her worries when she catastrophises.

I confronted a dad at the school gates who had these elaborate stories, I said it’s BS in front of other parents, he has never spoken to me since, thank goodness!!! I found out all sorts about his shell companies on companies house and posts on Facebook (he had several
accounts) requesting money for investment, he was so dodgy! I think instagram has made it worse, people believe their own BS! Not to
mention the love bombing (enablers)!

I’m an academic and the world of academia can be brutal, classist, racist, sexist and just plain hideous at times. It’s even worse within the upper echelons of Oxbridge. I realise someone claimed his PhD was plagiarised but this is highly unlikely given the actual process of awarding a PhD. I’ve noticed LJM have dismissed claims it was plagiarised too. So his main lies were previous teaching roles at other universities and publications I gather? I’m highly surprised Cambridge didn’t check his references.

I’m not defending him, I don’t know enough about it but all I know is how brutal it can feel even just having a regional accent to be frank. Some academics make you feel like you don’t belong. Lots of snobbery, even though you have the same qualifications as them. Publications are a whole other pressure in themselves.

I have been one of these people and would strongly suspect that the root causes are different for different people. For me, it started in my early teens and went on for around 4 years before I realised that I had to stop.

I was undiagnosed autistic, relentlessly bullied, and had very low self-esteem. I never fitted in, and the harder I tried to fit in the worse I seemed to make it for myself. My home life was also difficult for a variety of reasons. Primary school was hell and secondary school was worse. I had “friends” but only with people with whom there was a real power imbalance - I was highly intelligent but for the most part, the only kids I could get to hang out with me were those who were (to be blunt) much less bright, or vulnerable in some other way, or younger. I was never unkind to them - I helped them with schoolwork and took care of them really, but I was very much the one in charge as that was
the only way I could manage to find a friend of sorts. School reports detail me finding other children who would let me “mother” them.

When I was 13, something happened to me. It was actually deeply unpleasant but when I told a few people at school about it I was met with (what felt like) a huge amount of interest, even awe. It was positive attention from peers, which had been very hard to come by, and I suppose probably helped me deal with what had happened to me at the time, by pretending it was a cool thing rather than having to recognise and process the trauma of it all.

Before long I was making up more stories. All different from the thing that actually happened but I suppose along the same sort of “theme”. Largely it was all quite believable,
I think, and people bought it, but I think that became the case less and less as time went on (which is what happens with these things!). I actually stopped being bullied when I started with the stories. I assume people saw me a bit differently then? I don’t know. Anyway, because of this, I was clearly incentivised to continue! And I actually finally made some friends where the relationship was much more balanced. I’m not sure it was directly because of the stories but more that maybe I’d formed this new identity rather than constant embarrassingly poor attempts to fit in all the time. There was never any financial or material gain from any of it.

Of course it didn’t work out. By the end of sixth form my friends had pretty much had enough of me. We never discussed any disbelief around stories/lying so I have no clue how much they ever believed, but my mental health had been very poor throughout this. I’d been really hard work and probably a lot of stress and hassle for them regardless and some of the stuff I was making up will have certainly added to that, whether they believed it or not.

I went to uni, saw it as a clean break with a fresh start and never did it again - not once. I still struggled socially and with poor mental health, and continued to be hard work for friends and I don’t see any friends I made at uni either, but it wasn’t through making things up.

I’m now so vehemently anti-lying. I hate what I did and am ashamed when I think of it. I never lie now and I hate being lied to. I realised I was autistic in my early 20s and finally found real friends when I found a small group of other autistic women. I’m happily married and have a proper adult life and have never told my husband or anyone in my grown up life what I used to be like.

An old boss was engaged to a millionaire who lived in Canterbury but they were long distance as she lived in Yorkshire.She lived in a house she owned with her mother.

The reality was she was living in her mother's house with her,there was no boyfriend and the picture she had of him on her desk was of an actor.Everyone at our work knew the truth but noone ever dared say so.