Wwyd? Pregnant employee. Don’t want to be sued but, ah!

[HavanaOhna]

I’m manager for a small company, there are about 8 employees so very small. We had a lovely young woman started in the new year who found out she was pregnant shortly after. Absolutely fine.

we’ve been very supportive as her pregnancy has been complicated, loads of additional scans, scares, admissions. We’ve always told her to take the time she needs for these, paid and to take extra time after them as they can be taxing. Sometimes she takes the whole day for one scan and that’s ok.

The issue is she’s now 7 months, seems incredibly poorly but won’t go on sick due to finances (has exhausted sick pay, this would be unpaid now). She’s WFH, at her request and our blessing, and is doing I’d say the bare minimum. Just scraping by work wise. Every time I see her on teams she looks gaunt, and exhausted, and has admitted that she’s tearful, not sleeping, and has had further pregnancy issues. These are all supported by documentation.

Then a few days ago she came into the office. First time in months. She could barely sit at her desk, she wasn’t doing much all day, up and down to the loo, extended lunch break. I really feel for her. We had a wellbeing meeting and she’s insisting she’s fine. I organised an occupational health session and she reiterated to them she’s fine, but you can see she’s on her knees.

I don’t really know what to do. She’s vital at work and although things are being done she’s working at I’d say 50% capacity. If this is mentioned, she promises she will sort it out so ends up working into the evening (which again we don’t want). A colleague became so frustrated the other day she pointedly asked her why she doesn’t go on maternity early and this wasn’t met well. Others are having to pick up the slack heavily, and some colleagues have started to avoid her completely work wise.

HR (no in house, outsourced) said not much we can do as she cannot be forced to take maternity leave early and if she says she’s not sick she’s not sick but I don’t know how we can do another 8 weeks going forward. I feel team morale is low, she is obviously unwell.

I know I'll be shot down in flames for saying this, but no wonder so many employers are reluctant to employ women of childbearing age... This woman 'started in the new year' (I assume January/February,) and is now 7 months pregnant, (so must have been pregnant when she started.)

In addition, she is 'sick' all the time/underperforming and making others pick up the slack! And then she will be taking maternity leave, and you just KNOW she is going to take the full 12 months.

I know pregnancy is a 'protected Characteristic' but come on, no-one can seriously put their hand on their heart, and say they think this is OK. This is breathtakingly unfair on the other staff.

And on top of this, there's talk of menopause leave and menstruation leave and all sorts.

Who'd be a boss or a manager eh?!

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But op has tried- she has asked the pregnant employee if she is fit to work because she is concerned that she is not. Employee says she is. OP remains concerned and has asked for an occupational health review and risk assessment- and has been informed the employee is fit to work. HR has said if this is the case, they don’t believe she can be forced to take sick leave or maternity leave. OP has no choice but to treat as though she is fit to be at work- doing otherwise could be seen as discrimination because she says she is well enough and OH assessment is that she is fit for work. The employee is the author of her own difficulties- should it come to that- in this instance. Because she is not playing fair with her employer.

An employer is not responsible for their employees financial difficulties/situation. They are employing them to do a job and if extra support in the workplace is needed due to physical or mental health problems, or disability, then it is right appropriate support is put in place- within reasonable limits. But the employer has no responsibility to take an employees financial situation into account or make mitigation. They are employers, not carers or nannie’s and the employees are independent, mentally competent adults who should not be infantilised.

It'll cost the company far more if you either force her on sick leave or dismiss her during pregnancy. You HAVE to legally make reasonable adjustments for pregnancy- even to the extent of massively reducing her workload - and she can't be penalised for this.

Personally I think you should accept she will be doing less work for this short time and suck it up. If you do anything illegal she could claim a huge amount from you - I recently read a maternity leave discrimination case that awarded the individual 1.4million! Rare but the amount would be uncapped. It puts two months of paying her to do reduced/not much work really into perspective...

I have managed these types of situations in the past, thankfully not many and in a larger private company.

I have always just paid sick leave. It is the right and moral thing to do. This woman is struggling and is giving birth to our next generation. Wherever possible, and without putting company finances in complete, jeopardy pay her.

This will also help morale as you can hire her vital replacement and phase the replacement in over a longer period. Due to the fact you are paying her, she may be able to do odd handover meeting. You will find you are probably only paying a month or so as her sick pay will trigger in 6 weeks or so.

I hope you are able to persuade owners to do right thing.

Good luck @HavanaOhna

Men have children too and they would never have to struggle through working during pregnancy health complications.

It is absolutely sexist to penalise women for being the ones to carry the burden of pregnancy illness impacting their work performance. Employers need to be way more understanding of pregnancy complications and give pregnant women reduced workloads if needed if we are EVER going to get to any type of equality at work between the sexes.

I’ll be very honest here, as a small business owner this is why all of my employees are men or older women. In the past we had so many issues with this type of situation we (I run the business with my dh) decided that we would only interview men / older women. I know that will be harshly judged but it’s what we felt we had to do.

Also the resentment that js building up against her is likely to affect her relationship with her colleagues going forward. They will always bear that in mind going forward.

It is a legal minefield. Her financial situation shouldn’t affect the business though. She has chosen to have a baby in less than ideal circumstances but she shouldn’t expect her employer to pay her when she’s not capable.

Yet pregnancy protections mean that most employers end up having to accept this kind of thing.

Well maternity allowance only runs for 39 weeks, so if she has financial worries you can’t possibly “know” she’ll take the full year. She’s going to be getting less that £900 a month for 39 weeks then nothing for the remainder

Was she freelance before you hired her? I ask because I am and its pretty common to go employed when you're trying to get a mortgage, pregnant etc

I completely get that. I always made a point of saying in interviews that I was never going to need mat leave or parental leave.

And I know you will probably be flamed on here for your post but know that many people completely understand

@jacks11 it feels to me like the employee is saying she is fit for work as she is financially scared of losing money and not being paid.

i would bet that if she is offered her pay to either have some sick leave or write handover notes and review potential mat leave candidates, she will not then say she feels fine to work.

she is vulnerable, scared, did not expect to feel this ill when she was pregnant and needs to be fully supported with money by her company. This will be this company's duty of care.

That is unlawful discrimination.

If you can’t afford to provide the necessary employee benefits, statutory or otherwise, you shouldn’t be running a business that requires you to employ people.

And this is why birth rate is declining.

What on earth? You think someone is happy to be having a difficult pregnancy? It’s unforeseen circumstances

what if someone got cancer?

If someone goes on maternity leave for 12 months it’s easily done, it’s covered by a temporary contractor

I really do think she should be getting paid sick leave. I actually think it's disgusting an employer wouldn't offer enough paid sick leave to a pregnant women suffering from complications.

Men have children exactly the same as us and yet they're protected from all of this. Not only does this poor woman have to suffer the horrible health complications she's going through, she also has to choose between work or no pay, and she has a boss/colleagues complaining about her.

This would never ever happen to a man and until people realise that protecting pregnant women and those on mat leave is the least we could do for equality at work, the worse inequality between men and women at work will become.

Yes, but those reasonable adjustments do require the employee to say they need adjustments. They have made adjustments, and despite this her performance is still not adequate. The employee is now saying she is 100% fit to work with the adjustments in place. OH are saying the same. How can you even consider making further adjustments where none are requested and no problems admitted to? If there is to be formal acceptance of reduced workload and others taking that on, that is a formal process- you should not just surreptitiously move her work to her colleagues and pretend all is fine. There has to be a proper, formal plan.

i’d also suggest that it isn’t as simple as “you have to make adjustments”- there has to be a risk assessment, absolutely- and mitigations may need to be made after that. The employee can ask for additional adjustments over and above this. Then the employer has to assess whether they are reasonable- they don’t just have to agree to whatever a pregnant woman says she wants/needs. If what she wants/needs is not reasonable or deliverable- and I agree the employer would have to be able to evidence that they had given fair consideration to the request and justify if the reject all or part of the adjustments requested- they do not have to agree to them.

Yes it’s mad.

its almost like most people dont want women in the workplace at all. So much so that the governments have to legislate to make it equitable for women to be in the workplace. Because organisation’s, still dominated by male controllers, won’t do what’s right for themselves.

So you think the entire burden of pregnancy illness complications should be placed on women, and companies shouldn't make extra accomodations for this? So the women carrying the child should be the one to have her career impacted?

Despite the fact that men have children exactly the same as women, and because they are lucky enough not to be the ones carrying the child, they are entirely protected at work.

IF we want the human race to continue women have to give birth.

IF we want women to be able to input into society in more ways than be home managers and full time mothers, women will need supporting from all parts of the community during the parts of their lives that happen to be unique to women - their ability to grow another life inside them. THey will need supporting during the good and the bad bits.

IF, we don't want the above then let's just worry about our P&Ls.

IANAL but I have experience of chronic illness, which is similarly really difficult for businesses to manage.

Rather than treating it as a binary 'ill/well' it is often helpful to acknowledge that people can be well enough to do some work, but too ill to do 100%, and make adjustments accordingly.

Eg you could have a mandatory paid break morning and afternoon. If she can go and lie down for 20-30 minutes she might then feel OK enough to get some tasks done. I had no idea this was a possibility until I recently came across it being done and it seems like a really obvious and sensible way to help people struggling to manage a whole day.

As others have said, having her doing some of her job is surely better than none if she's off sick.

Reduced hours / full pay if you can afford it would probably help, rest of the team don't need to know.

This nonsense is always trotted out on Mumsnet - its laughable when you look at the Public Sector by comparison - were it a business it would have gone bust in minutes but, hey, that's all right. No need to be efficient or viable when there is the good old beleaguered tax payer there to foot the bill for your new employee of a few months being off for six months on full pay and then six months maternity pay

The key difference here though it’s that the manager knows the employee is struggling. She knows all the information about financial constraints, sick pay limitations, how unwell that employee really is regardless of what she is saying.

In an ET, the judge would be asking ‘what did you do with that information’ the employer would currently say ‘nothing’.

they need to act with a duty of care with all the information they have. Not just what the OH or GP or HR company said in isolation of what they are seeing and experiencing with their own eyes and ears.

They are not doing that which is why it’s a management failure.

Of course they should. Pregnancy complications are not the fault of the employer and are not their responsibility.

Whilst employers are not allowed to discriminate, do you honestly think that they don’t silently do so rather than risk the cost and inconvenience of someone being unable to work effectively during their pregnancy (and that’s not taking into account mat leave cover)?

Its nobody’s fault but it’s not always possible/affordable to get outside cover on an ad hoc basis so the person’s colleagues end up picking up the slack.

And pregnant women are more protected than non pregnant woman and in fact men in the workplace.

And @PrettyLittleRose - I have been a manager/ leader and a strong advocate for women in my companies during pregnancy and return to work. Being in a position to advocate and support women in these critical periods of their lives is a privilege as a leader.

I can also promise you the return on your investment in a working mother is always repaid ten fold.

Tell me you know nothing about running a business, without telling me you know nothing.