New plans at Manchester Uni: compulsory work placements and doing away with ‘traditional content delivery’

[BlossomBlossomBlossom]

Aka ‘lectures’

University will make all students go on work placement

https://www.thetimes.com/article/0095e04e-4307-453c-a964-06ffcbe1e712?shareToken=6677ef624558a383f9dda5fd72f7fc3d

Wonder how quickly these ideas will spread to other institutions.

The article seems fair.

more seminars and workshops.

they’re putting in place plans for every degree to include an internship, exchange (language degrees presumably) or project.

sounds fine?

I can't see how it could possibly work. My DS is on a course where he wanted to do a placement year (not Manchester uni) but was unable to get one, so is now going straight into his 3rd year. And he's not alone...only one of his friends managed to secure a placement (not the same courses) - all the placements have a zillion applicants as there are too few of them out there...

The work experience sounds useful. (If it’s so well organised that everyone does get one.)

But I liked lectures! Not so much for superstar lecturers but as a way of gauging just how many other people were studying that particular bit of a subject. And hearing what they were talking about.

My faculty keeps trying to bring in large internship programmes, we can never get enough internships though, and we're in London! I don't see how this can work practically.

It's also foolish to get rid of lectures when students are doing so little reading of their own. We can have better lectures yes, but an engaging lecture so everyone has the same base of knowledge, then a highly interactive seminar is a good combination.

I never had lectures - seminars and tutorials - I loved it. I’d have zoned out in lectures (did a few elective ones)

There are nowhere near enough placements for the courses that currently offer them, and universities offen give little to no help to students applying for them.

it’s very time consuming and demoralising and unless Manchester is going to be able to guarantee places it just won’t happens

Depends what they define as a placement though.

Yes it might be difficult for everyone to get a year long structured placement, but other things could count. Voluntary work, projects with societies etc. students doing Duke of Edinburgh/ IB have to do similar.

The problem with this is my DS’s experience is that they make the ‘internship’ a compulsory part of the degree and then offer zero help for students to actually secure one. When I went to uni in the 90’s there were some available for those who wanted them, it looked good on the CV and often led to a job offer following graduation but they were well organised by the uni and not compulsory.

Agree with the posters above. Contact the admissions tutors and ask if everybody is guaranteed a placement or do they have to find their own. Also, if they do guarantee a placement, ask what sort of placement and in which year it takes place. A very general placement in the first year of a course is a lot less valuable than a more relevant one done nearer to graduation. Having a response in writing as an email would be useful for further down the line.

I think the reality will be in the detail. It is described as 'starting to roll out'. With the quote about the scheme being:
“A big ambition for us at Manchester is wanting every single student to have a chance to put their learning into context: an internship, a placement, a joint project or an exchange."
An exchange or a joint project could be interpreted as almost anything. For example, an employer could suggest a project/problem that large groups of students could then work on at uni without direct employer contact. The idea that all students at Manchester will be able to access high quality degree relevant work placements for a sustained periods is just not realistic in the short term. I think it is a great 'ambition', but I think there are massive challenges in implementation.

& 'a chance' is not a guarantee. Students can (as is noted above) have a chance of getting a placement, but not get one. It sounds revolutionary, but the reality may not be.

Students on smaller courses already have very few lectures.

my ds did music in London and the numbers on modules were such that all teaching time was seminar or workshop.

i did a masters in education recently and again, although there were one or two lectures it was mostly seminars and workshops.

I went to Uni in the 90's. (A Manchester University College in fact) every one on the degree courses had to do a term of work experience in the summer term of the second year. We found our own - and the college did have some links. Our degrees were Performing Arts, Media or Sports.
We also didn't have a lot of 'lectures' I the traditional sense Much more practical lessons.
It was the only degree I found with a terms work experience. A great middle ground - and as it was the summer term people could stay on working for the summer if they were offered the choice.
This is my longwinded way of saying I agree with the article.

DD is doing more of a vocational/HC degree and has been doing placements from month 2. Except they are 1 day a week/fortnight and the uni finds them all, for everyone. DS was another one who chose a year in industry course and couldn't find a place so couldn't do it. Little help from the uni there.

They will struggle to place everyone. My son went to Bath which has a strong history of this and relationships with many big companies and some peers found it hard to get places. Other universities like Guildford have also done this a while, so they have competition from unis that really know what they're doing. Each department has its own placement officer for example. Great idea, but it will take them some years to get anywhere I suspect.

@Octavia64 there were certainly no lectures involved in my MA - and I wouldn’t expect them to exist at that level.

But at undergraduate level there’s surely no reason why students on even the most niche course wouldn’t benefit from some expert lectures that illustrate, for example, how to approach academic research, through the lecturers’ subjects.

Ha! to placements for all. Good luck with that.

They will end up either being too short to be useful or impossible to get the decent ones and the ones available being equivalent to workfare.

Thank you for saying this.

For some science-based courses, the placement rate for a supposed ‘Year In Industry’ is as low as 3%.

It’s a well-kept secret and a bit of a scandal. Unless the universities are organising their own supply of placements through their own schemes, it’s unlikely that students will get what’s advertised and their money’s worth.

@dreamingbohemian agree ! And your in London ?? What hope for elsewhere.
Ideally of course it's great to get experience but the reality is what business wants to baby sit these students.
Don't get the new t levels and v levels also require work experience from industry that doesn't seem to want to do it ?? Madness .

Don't forget

Yes even in London!

And let's also think about the impact on graduate jobs, already there's been a big decrease in graduate jobs, what happens when employers stitch together placements instead of hiring people properly

When DD was applying I had lots of lovely chats with student reps at open days about placements. Not one provided any more help than CV writing sessions. To require good placement results will impact so many without friends and family links, if universities don't start providing placements.

There is a lot of evidence that traditional lectures (hundreds of students sat in one room being talked at) is not the most effective way to teach.

I'm my department we avoid large lectures wherever possible and teach via seminars and group tutorials.

There is also a lot of evidence that work experience/internships improve degree classifications and employability prospects.

Do you find the seminars productive, @HighLadyofTheNightCourt?

Our recent graduate complained of staggeringly poor engagement in seminars from at least half of his fellow students - this at a well regarded RG uni.

This is not an unusual ambition in HE these days.

Good placements are useful but hard to organise, and generally end up being supplemented by internal projects, which also have their uses.

Lectures have been declared defunct many times over, but they have a habit of sneaking back in within seminars / workshops etc, because both academics and students tend to be comfortable with the format. Like workshops and seminars, they neither guarantee nor exclude effective teaching and learning.

These changes tend to be less sweeping than their architects expect.