Has immigration enriched the UK through greater cultural and culinary diversity?

[HonestFox]

When it has bought so many different cultures and food into the U.K. so why is there so much hatred towards it?

“… and I like that” is fine, you’re allowed to think that. But I don’t think you’ve understood the issue at all – natives are allowed to apply for the jobs, but the jobs being open to immigrants means the wages are low. That’s the problem – you might get what you like, but the cost of that is wrecking the prospects of fellow citizens.

This is a deluded comment. There are areas where immigration works well and people integrate. I’m 2nd gen migrant and I love seeing actual diversity. Where people are happy and have shared community, place attachment, language, culture. Nobody has an issue with that.

I even grew up with two asylum seekers who came as unaccompanied minors, and they are both great individuals.

People’s issues are:

1. The scale of immigration is not sustainable
2. The legal route for letting people in is potentially not selective enough
3. Illegal immigration and potentially letting in dangerous individuals. Without background checks, we could be letting in perpetrators of violent conflicts (understatement), we don’t know who all of these people are.

And like white people, not every immigrant is a nice person. It’s a bit patronising to put people on a pedestal because of their race. Or to assume that every black, Asian or ME person agrees with you - and only racist white people could possibly disagree.

Your comment is giving ‘I don’t see colour’ vibes, just trying to look like a good person but missing the mark

@SpringAndSunshineIsHere I just realised it was me you were calling racist! But what I’m saying is that being part of a country has to mean something, and that it’s wrong to favour migrants over your fellow citizens. If that’s racist, so be it. What then?

A lot of the reason why people are leaving THOSE countries of origin is because of violence, extremism and persecution. So no... I'd imagine the same people wouldn't look too kindly on Christians either. I'm not sure what that has to do with the people who have fled those groups though?

Yes, and thanks to migration, we have staff in our NHS and care homes. So be grateful.

What is an illegal immigrant? Just so we're clear?

Communities have cohesion... common language, shared spaces, familiarity and mutual recognition. How can the area of the big northern city where I worked have community, when its run down flats and houses contain a multitude of different people, languages and cultures ? And what has gone? The chat at the bus stop ..the pubs (all shuttered up now), the pub football and darts teams, .the church Christmas events and socials, the churches themselves, the local knowledge of families who d spent years living alongside other families. Don t minimise this.

There's a lot of choice in this though. I was sat next to a woman in the doctors the other day and even with a language barrier and a niqab between us we were able to have a really nice exchange about our kids. These things disappear when people decide they don't want to connect with someone because it looks daunting. Then they moan about it. If you don't let people work, if you don't interact with them at the bus stop then you are limiting their ability to learn English quickly. And then using that as a stick to beat them with. Churches etc have been in trouble long before now and actually one of the churches in my area that's thriving does loads of work with newcomer communities and we have people of all faiths attending services more for the community and connection than the religious aspect. Community is absolutely a choice and an attitude and we've been moving towards not knowing our neighbours for a long time even when those neighbours have the same background and heritage we do. I'd say people need to be more accountable. I work in the community sector and its becoming increasingly difficult to get people to take on community leadership roles. People in general are increasingly individually minded and then are surprised when they suddenly have no community around them.

No - because there is inadequate social cohesion. Immigration in ever larger numbers has caused groups of people to stick their own in certain areas. I daresay the Brits do the same in expat communities - but it doesn't enrich us. It actually causes conflict (eg. muslim groups calling for Sharia Law - and in fact, implementing it some areas, meaning we have 2 separate justice systems.)

On the culinary bit - yes we all like a curry.

OP’s question sounds like:

Butter chicken and overseas firms’ profits
OR
Adequate public services?

Well, cuisines have always travelled internationally with or without immigration. The rich import and export it, as did businesses and the aristocracy. Bit like fashion in clothes, houses and gardens.

But I’d definitely answer wrong on Friday nights 😁

Overstaying visas, false asylum claims, marriage fraud, whatever you want to call or categorise it as.

Now that I think about it, I had a relative who was deported for overstaying a student visa and landed 10y ban iirc. I’ve heard some stories growing up which is why I find it extra funny when people think only white people have concerns about our immigration system.

Our immigration policies have also lacked discernment. Whilst in principle it's fine to have some unskilled immigrants and assume that society will absorb them we have had large numbers of unskilled and low wage immigrants - many of whom have made no attempt to adapt to UK society but for whom we as a nation have adapted to.

Whilst the debate about the nature of Islam is complex it often feels like whilst it's okay to joke about Christianity and other religions it is not tolerated by Muslims and that religion has to have special treatment. We have also received many immigrants from Pakistan and Afghanistan who follow a very hard-line form of Islam - who whilst we compromise they often will not do so and many of whom hold views about women and gays that are contrary to ones we as a western liberal society try to teach. Its probably quite unhelpful that the dominant form of Islam in the UK is one of the least tolerant and most hard line interpretations of that faith. Consequently we have situations where circa 45% of working age Muslim women in the UK are not in paid work.

The UK tax system levies no income tax on income up to circa 12k and then 20% tax up to the next 40k (50k ish in total). So someone on 30k pays circa 4k in tax and NIC, whilst the government pays out 17k per head of population for services. This means migrants are tax negative for the UK.

On top of this the amount of houses per head and infrastructure per head of population is less. House building is much lower than required. We haven't built many new roads or railways for instance but have to fit many more people on to those roads and into those parking spots.

Whilst immigrants may have taken jobs British people don't want to have its a lazy justification for high levels immigration because ultimately as a nations we have many unemployed who should be working and we should also train enough people for key industries and pay them appropriately.

Consider how much lower UK house prices would be with 15m fewer people? How much lighter traffic would be on the road and how easy it would be to park in towns and cities? Also how much higher NHS, social services and education funding per head of population would be due to fewer tax negative migrants. Its easy to understand why people feel like the level of immigration has been too high, lacked discernment and not benefited existing citizens.

Very lazy justification for immigration. Rather than putting British people on the scrapheap we should be helping them into employment with appropriate training and jobs. Its disappointing that you would rather have immigrants fill those roles than help existing UK citizens into jobs and paid employment!

It would be interesting to have a Mumsnet poll on this - because someone sent me this tiktok video of (probably the first and last time) the BBC did a poll on this subject. I doubt the BBC liked the answer they got.

https://www.tiktok.com/@news.magpie/video/7625590059655335190

Yes this could have been done from the start investing in the people here rather than having them on benefits etc

the skills shortage myth has always been peddled

I do wonder if it would have been a lot better for things like house prices and affordable accommodation if we hadn’t had so much immigration

I like foreigners and immigrants and have spent most of my life being one. I think immigration has (can have) huge cultural and economic upsides and there’s also a freedom argument for it. So you can’t paint me as kneejerk anti-immigration.

The serious debate is not about skin colour. Reducing it to that makes me think you either are new to the debate or are being disingenuous.

Because of specific policy choices there is a very large wave of immigrants that, the data suggests, will cost the public purse more than they pay in tax. Both currently, and via dependents, and, especially, as they age. They are no doubt admirable people, but they are also a problem.

More net-negative people means a greater tax burden and worse-funded services. Does that concern you? It’s attractive to politicians becuase the costs come later, off their watch. Do you think that’s responsible decision-making? The responsible but politically painful alternative (to the care visa route, which is one of the main culprits here) would be to increase the pay of social care staff, so that the costs are recognised up-front.
Do you think care staff are overpaid as it is? Should we be proud that the govt uses its (effectively) monopoly buyer position to hold wages under the market level, and plug the gap with people brought here specifically because they can work below that level?

This is a public finances and demographics issue, not a race one.

China is extremely diverse.

Han Chinese (what more western people think of as Chinese) are only one ethnic group there are many many others.

each area has it’s own language and it’s own cuisine - eg in Shanghai they speak Shanghainese and have their own dishes.

there are fierce debates in China about whether schools should teach in Mandarin (the language of Beijing area and what people usually mean when they say Chinese) or in the local language (Shanghainese, Cantonese etc).

Let be honest, it's not just the huge increase in immigration numbers, the massive elephant in the room that is rarely discussed in good faith is that not all migration is of equal merit and that certain people from certain parts of world carry with them cultural baggage that they refuse to let go of that sets them at odds with the host nations societal norms or at the very least places them at a huge economic/social disadvantage. Millions of migrants have settled in the UK/Europe and within a generation or less improved their lot immeasurably as they have managed to achieve that sweet spot of prospering economically and retain their cultural identity while not siloing themselves into insular inward looking communities. In the most egregious examples it seems we have whole communities that actively hate everything about the country they have elected to live in.

@ChamonixMountainBum nailed it.

Growing up in a large extremely diverse, multi cultural city I was totally on board with immigration and had friends from all types of backgrounds. Religion or cultural differences weren't really discussed; instead we formed friendships through our commonalities and shared interests. But something changed in the 2000s with an explosion in conservative Islam and a renewed vigour in maintaining cultural ties to ' back home' - from language choices to cultural dress. Learning and subsequently, Communicating in English became a choice not the norm. From this point onwards and up to present times, integration took a big step backwards. I just see sadly, lots of parallel communities living together, but separately of each other. I can no longer see the benefit for anyone.

The problem with all of that is that, as @SpringAndSunshineIsHere says, “people with issues about there being too many foreigners are racist”. I assume that means we just have to put up with parallel societies which are a drain on the country forever. It’s a shame, but we wouldn’t want to be racist now would we.

@grizzlyoldbearWe should be giving our homegrown medical staff jobs. Instead we have numerous recent graduates who cannot gain employment.

I love diversity where it’s balanced and all mix & socialise even if just casually around work & interests & where we live.
But that’s not what I see currently.
I see totally seperate communities that’s don’t mix and have no interest in mixing. I see sections of society that don’t work and either don’t want to or have no visas & don’t make any effort to integrate.
depressing.

That is very simplified. Would you like if a recent graduate was doing brain surgery on you?