Help with impossibly contrary child

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DD9 has some learning difficulties but is pretty ‘normal’ presenting. Has a 1:1 for maths and some interventions and has been dropped back a school year, but otherwise is like all the other kids.

She is funny and quite sharp witted at times. She has friends but not loads of them as she argues.

Her behaviour is the issue. She is just so bloody contrary and has been ever since she could point tbh. It is constant and it is exhausting.

For example I wake her up every morning for school. 9 times out of ten she starts the day by arguing. ‘It’s not time to get up’ ‘you’re being mean’ ‘it’s still dark so it’s not morning.’ Proper arguments and refusing to get up because she’s right and I’m wrong.

We had a massive blow up yesterday evening because she had had a friend round and they’d had some toys out. After the friend left I asked her to please tidy away the toys. 2-3 min job tops, it was teddies so just lobbing them in the basket.
She stuck out her bottom lip and said ‘not fair.’ I explained why it was fair. She maintained it wasn’t because Emily got most of them out.

Long story short she refused to tidy because it wasn’t her mess (it was). I explained patiently why it was her responsibility. I reasoned with her and asked who she thought should tidy them if not her.

The thing is - I think she genuinely believes at these times that she is right and that I’m being mean.

She continued to refuse and sulk, so I said if I tidied them it would be into a black bag and she wouldn’t see them until she could behave. She continued arguing and sulking so I lost my shit, threw them all into bin liners and sent her to bed.

Not ideal but what can I do? I have been arguing with this child for the best part of 9 years. I love her dearly but nothing works. If I met her now for the first time I’d think she’s been spoiled rotten. But she has NEVER got away with any of this behaviour ever. And the other children are beautifully behaved!

I just want to find the answer to help her because she’s going to have a fucking rough ride from the world if she carries on like this.

I could've written your post and my DD is the same age. She's always been the same but lately it has got worse so have assumed it's the start of hormonal changes.

I really worry about the friendship side of things as her need to be right all the time has caused issues for her at school already. We bought her some "feelings" type workbooks to work through on her particularly angry days but they don't help much.

I have nothing to offer but solidarity. The constant arguments are so draining.

I didn't get into an argument with mine. Either carrot or stick.

So "no supper until the teddies are in the basket", or "people who get to the kitchen in 5 seconds get the last chocolate croissant, ready, steady, go"

For things that matter, like school, ignore her arguments unless they are valid. There was once that ds refused point blank to get out of bed or dressed, so I put all his clothes in the car, then picked him up and drove him to school in his pj's. He was horrified that people might see him like that, and never did it again.

Don't blink first.

Thanks for the solidarity. I wondered if hormones were making it worse too but she’s always been difficult tbh.

I'd get her an alarm clock! She can set it herself and there will be no arguing with that.

The sunrise alarm clocks are pretty good. They slowly get brighter, before the alarm goes off, and it's supposed to be a more gentle way to wake up.

Has she ever been assessed for neurodivergence?

Sounds a lot like my nephew who has autism with a PDA profile (PDA is pathological demand avoidance - a demand in this context is any expectation/suggestion from other people and kids with PDA can have an immediate fear/anger response to demands).

Even if that label doesn’t fit well, some of the techniques in PDA parenting might help you, it’s all about not getting into the argument/presenting what needs to happen in a way that doesn’t trigger them.

alarm clock - then the demand on her is being placed by an object rather than you.

i have also heard changing your language slightly helps - so rather that a demand/question 'can you tidy the teddies' change to saying 'it's time to tidy the teddies' or giving choice 'tidy teddies now or after dinner' then she is making her own choice and feels more in control.

Solidarity though. It is draining and not easy constant conflict over minutiae.

If she has some learning difficulties, could there be an element of neurodivergence at play? In any case, I think Meadowfinch’s advice is good - try not to get dragged into arguments with her. For instance, in the morning when you wake her up - just do that, don’t try to convince her that “yes it’s morning even though it’s dark” if she brings that up. Don’t ask her to tidy up her toys, tell her “teddies away before dinner.”

My ten year old DD is the ADHD can be similar to your daughter at times, to the point that I looked up Pathological Demand Avoidance. Now she’s far from having that issue but I still found some of the advice around how to manage that issue quite useful and it’s helped.

https://childmind.org/article/pathological-demand-avoidance-in-kids/

Ha! I see some other posters suggested the same while I was typing away.

My 8yo dd is the same. Really worried about her friendships as she’s now not got any close friends due to the way she speaks to them. The last play date she shouted at her guest several times and there’s been no return invitation forthcoming!

I find that keeping things light with humour (when I have the energy for it) can stop things escalating. Also if I prepare her a LOT for what’s expected such as tidying after a play date, there may be less resistant. It’s hit and miss though. She always finds a new angle to spin things and wriggle her way out of whatever plan I’ve prepared her for. Always say she’ll make a great lawyer!

Consequences do nothing for us, she doesn’t care. We currently are on a zero screentime rule due to her behaviour and she’s so blasé about it 🙄

There’s no easy answers but I have sympathy. Fingers crossed it gets better for them as they get older.

We switched to an alarm clock so she does get herself up, but she still storms into the room angry at the world for having to wake up, so just a heads up that it may not work although it is a good suggestion 🙈

We've been offering ours choices since she was small as she has always been this way, but no choices are good enough. Even if we issue instructions and don't stand for the bullshit of arguing, she finds a way to express anger so loudly that it is draining to everyone in the house.

My mum just hid anything left out. And might not remember where. But that was our problem to solve. We lived in a bloody large house with loads of random bits of furniture full of crap. I ended up know what was in every one. In retrospect it was a good method.

Op it sounds like PDA and if so you have to come at it another way.
Try different strategies.

And pick your battles.
Not every child is ready to tidy up at a younger age.
Make it fun
..give a reward....say how grown up it is or just drop that rope.

As soon as I read your post I was going to ask whether she’d been assessed for autism - I was so similar to her at that age - always had to be right and was constantly picking at things - I’m not perfect as an adult either and still find myself doing it when I’m dysregulated or tired.

You are the adult and you make the rules and stick to them.

I’m another one for the alarm clock. We also had a rule that, for every minute that they were late getting up, it would taken from bedtime. So, if they were due to get up at 7:30 (alarm would go off at 7:25 and 5 minutes grace was given) and didn’t appear until 7:45 then bedtime would be 15 minutes earlier as “they obviously needed extra sleep”. It’s so hard though and I frequently wonder how I got through it but by high school it was much easier. Good luck!

Yep, does sound like my DD. One thing that helps me - although it is definitely easier said than done - is to remember that often there’s nothing we can do as parents. Meaning: we’re naturally wanting to soothe the anger and the distress they may be experiencing but it’s not necessarily your job to make things better for our kids in that way. When I remember that, it helps me “distance myself” and while of course I remain available for cuddles etc, I don’t get upset or frustrated with the behaviour as much so it helps with my stress levels.

Thanks so much. I tried an alarm clock but she can’t tell the time so she argued with the clock.
The sunrise one sounds good though, like a gro clock? Gro clock would be amazing but she’s too big for a baby clock.
I’ll look into it!

PDA/autism - valid suggestions. I definitely think there’s some ND. But she is a bit diagnosis-fatigued at the moment having had dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia and being kept back a year all in the past 10 months. She hates to be ‘different’ which is unfortunate, as she sadly is.

At school she isn’t as bad but at her last SEN meeting they were saying they’re seeing more conflict. She won’t argue with the teachers she just glares at them. As the teacher said, ‘if I was milk when she gave me her look I’d have passed sour and gone to cheese.’

So "no supper until the teddies are in the basket" or "people who get to the kitchen in 5 seconds get the last chocolate croissant, ready, steady, go"

Id suggest things like this too but they don’t work. First one she’d still argue, then put them away badly, but then would do something else so that she’s still ‘won.’ Shoulder barge her sibling coming into the kitchen for example.
Second example if it became apparent she wouldn’t be first, she’d sit down and sulk and argue why it isn’t fair. Or she’d clothesline the other kids and push over furniture to get there first.

You don’t have to start her on the path to an autism/PDA diagnosis to use techniques aimed at children who are diagnosed though - it would probably be worth reading up on how to best handle children like that as they don’t respond to normal boundaries and consequences.

Yes I can understand the diagnosis fatigue! But you can definitely try the techniques even without that diagnosis.

It takes two to argue OP - I would ignore the morning stuff and just reiterate it's time to get up, come down & have your breakfast and then walk away. If she makes herself late, give a consequence for that.

Same with tidying up toys - don't argue, give her the instruction 'put the toys away, dinner is in 10 minutes' then walk away, busy yourself doing something else. If the toys aren't put away, give a consequence. Getting drawn into arguing is counterproductive and it sounds like she is getting a lot of attention for bad behaviour. Switch it around, ignore the bad as much as you can and praise her a lot and give lots of attention for the behaviour you want to see. Stay calm, give a consequence for refusal to co-operate but don't allow yourself to get worked up and argue.

Not sure why you're explaining and being patient. You're raising an absolute horror. Give her the bollocking of her life, tell her to tidy her toys up because you say so and don't back down. 10 minutes of a massive bollocking and the shock of her life will save you from all this nonsense.

Well I’ve tried that many times and it makes no difference so what’s your next plan?