Inheritance issue

[TheRedLid]

This is about my parents money but not your typical MN inheritance issue. I will state from the very beginning that I have no interest in the money or what is coming my way, my concern right now is my mum and her care.

Both my parents are elderly now (in their 80's). They are both only children and when the last of my grandparents died (mum's dad and dad's mum died in 2001), they were left inheritance. Dad got around £20k as my paternal gp weren't that well off but mum was left a large house and my gp's substantial savings. I have seen the will and as you would expect the sole beneficiary of that will was my mum, their only child.

However, from the get go my dad saw it as 'their' money and invested all the money as well as buying himself a motorbike, a new car and a holiday to Canada (which mum didn't really want to go on). I can't really recall mum treating herself to anything. Nothing I could have done about that as mum seemed in agreement with it all.

However, 17 years later (around 2018) my mum received a diagnosis of Alzheimer's. It's been a rough journey for my poor mum as well as my dad, my sister and I. For the last 6 years my sister and I have helped to care and look after my mum and parents in general.

Thankfully, because of the savings and investments we have now been able to choose private carers and all that comes from caring for a person with advancing dementia.

But my dad resents all of it. He constantly moans and groans about how much it is all costing HIM, how he resents all the money HE has to spend out etc to the point he now wants to cancel mum's twice weekly visit to a day centre which admittedly costs a lot at £115 per day but actually does her a lot of good but every step of the way whatever my sister or I suggest to make mum's life more comfortable it is met with 'How much is that going to cost me', or 'No, I'm not prepared to spend that much', or 'I'm fed up with all this money I'm shelling out' or the weekly 'These carers are costing me an arm and a leg'

I've bitten my tongue as much as I can but I'm close to losing it with my dad and screaming at him 'Actually it's Mum's rightful money which was left to her in her parents will, your name was not included in that will dad and mum is coming to the end of her life, surely she deserves the best her money can buy to make her life easier'.

I have written many op about my dad and his sheer pig headed stubbornness but this is the icing on the cake for me. I do half wonder if he's scared the money will run out and there will be little left if he needs care but at the same time we need to concentrate on the here and now and it's mum who is terminally unwell.

My sister and I do have poa and can override him and we often do for small things but it's a constant battle which I don't want to have to face each time we want to make a purchase or pay for a service for mum.

I know this isn't AIBU (too scared to venture there) but am I right to think this isn't his money? HE isn't having to pay out for anything, it's all from my dear mum's money, money her parents gifted to her in their will?

It's a never ending battle.

He will not listen to anyone.

Was your mother's inheritance from her parents paid into her own bank account, or into a joint account with your father?

If it was the latter, when that happened it would have then been considered a marital asset, and your father legally entitled to half of it. Even if inheritance isn't combined into joint funds that way, courts will considered it have become a marital asset if the other spouse can prove it was used for joint expenses...and in the case of divorce, if not splitting the inheritance would leave one party significantly financially disadvantaged.

I think though that the main problem is that your father is being very nasty (for want of a better word) about providing a decent level of care for your terminally ill mother. The money is there to make this very difficult situation as comfortable as possible for your mother...it is very sad that your father feels the need to be so vocal about his anger at having to do so. Especially if arrangements have been made that there will still be funds available for him if the same situation arises.

I would be tempted to say something. Remind him that as he is married, half of the money is automatically your mother's anyway....it's not HIS money. As an aside, I fucking hate men who act this way...my FIL was like this when MIL was alive, and unfortunately my husband still slips up sometimes and refers to it as 'his' money, 'his' house. I'm always quick to point out that MIL worked their whole marriage, that they were married so it was 'her' money/house as well...

My parents don't have any joint accounts, all their investments are in their own names.

We know dad is secure in the house whilst he is alive but the advise we have been given is if mum is in a care home and her physical finances run out then a charge will be put on their home and when dad dies the house will need to be sold and any charges paid from the sale of their home.

It was split into separate accounts from the beginning under the advice of their financial advisor.

It is the very fact that mum, his wife of 54 years is coming to the end of her life and instead of seemingly wanting the best for her at this frankly, hideous time, he is ranting on and on about how much everything costs and how much it's costing HIM when mum is currently financing all her care from her side of the savings/investments.

My heart breaks for my mum, she looked after my dad and us for years and he repays her with being so bloody tight at the end of her life when the truth is they have enough money to buy a house with. I would understand if they had little money but they have enough to make life comfortable for them both with the right care (which subsequently will my sister and my lives easier) yet he chooses to be such an arsehole about it all.

Annalise Barbieri - How to talk to difficult people episode of her podcast. Highly recommend this.

Literally drop the rope with the whinging, do what you need to do, ignore the " it could be better". Your mum chose to marry & stay married to this person. Her choices are what has shaped the present. All you can do is mitigate the damage.

The money belongs to both of them, they are married and it's marital money. I would be tempted to ask him what he's saving it for and if he says for you, you can tell him you'd prefer to spend it on your mum. Is he (they) running out of cash and he's worried about losing the house?

If there is plenty of money and this is all just irrational behaviour on his part perhaps he is no longer competent?

Does your mum know any of this
Is she aware of it
Is she safe with him ,does he take her to the toilet and change her when she needs It ..does he help her drink and eat when carers are not there ,or does she stay hungry, thirsty,and wet , waiting for carers ????
I recognise you from when you have posted before
And I said the same before,as I say now
I would be looking for the best nursing home possible and getting her in there asap.
He sounds like a dreadful dreadful man
You have POA ,so use it for your poor mother and get her away from him

I have asked him many times but he gives no real explanation, I genuinely think he's been so used to having a portfolio of savings and investments over the last 20+ years and he doesn't want to see that drop at all.

Mum is 100% safe, dad is tight fisted financially but does love mum and would never, ever abuse her. I am there 5 days a week, my sister 3 days and 2 x carers three times a day (two of them are friends of mine so they would alert me if they had any concerns). When we or they are not there dad cooks for her and makes sure she always has a drink etc.

It's easier said than done with care homes. Mum was in hospital last week and we looked around a fair few for respite care upon discharge but they were all totally unsuitable and all the good rated ones in our area are full to capacity ATM. We are on waiting lists for respite care. I'm not going to place mum into any old care home unless it ticks all the boxes. It's not easy to get someone into a care home just like that sadly, as we have come to discover.

But I will assure you. Mum is well cared for and much loved.

The legal advice that was provided is incorrect. No charge will be put on the house if your dad is still living there. The house is disregarded.

Bluntly, your Dad’ an arsehole; you can’t change that; you can only change how you feel about it. I know it’s easier said than done. Try to focus on the practical, ignore his moaning, side step him where you can, pick your battles. If you do manage to get your DM into a good care home eventually, that may put your mind at rest at that point. Play the long game, and make sure you don’t lose out on spending actual time with your DM while you can

The advice we were given was that any outstanding care home fees (if money ran out) will be placed onto my parents house but put on hold until dad dies then we will have to sell the house and pay the outstanding bill.

This was the advice given to us by dad's financial advisor. Is this incorrect advice?

So, if we placed mum into a care home now and say, 2 years later her money runs out (most care homes we've spoken to ask for proof we can cover two years worth of fees) and she lives for a further 2 years then the LA will pick up the cost of this care and even if dad passes away they won't come for any outstanding fees from mum's half of the house? Surely this means many LA's are covering the cost of a lot of care from people who have assets which could cover this outstanding care when they die?

I'll be honest, I find the whole thing very confusing.

Thank you. My sister and I are coming over tomorrow to have a meeting with dad. We are both shattered from it all, including mum's many hospital stays which are exhausting, we do need to set some firm ground rules and a plan for moving forward. It's been a long 8 years.

I'm sitting with mum now whilst dad goes shopping. We have quality time even if she can no longer talk to me.

Your advice was not legal advice it was advice from a financial adviser and it was absolutely incorrect. I am a lawyer.

Your mum will be required to use any assets in her name towards her care before any local authority finding kicks in (this only happens when she has c23k left). The house is completely disregarded for funding purposes UNLESS your dad either sells it (in which case her half of the cash will be taken into account) or he dies (in which case the house is either her or half hers depending on how the house has been held) and it will then be taken into account.

The accounts in your father's name are not taken into account unless he has recently tried to sweep all of the money into his name in anticipation of care needs.

The house is not taken into account in any way whilst your father lives there.

The only time a charge can be put onto the home to recover care fees is if your father dies when your mother is in care and for some reason the house has not been sold yet. Otherwise it is completely excluded.

So basically anything in your mums name will be used towards her care. Anything in your father's name is ring fenced.

You would be surprised how quickly the money goes though and so you need to be very careful about using the money if you are trying to keep her out of local authority care. A month in a care home is approximately £8k. It goes VERY quickly.

EDIT to address your specific question. If the house is held as joint tenants and your father dies then it is all within your mothers estate and yes it will then need to be used to fund her care.

But if your mother died first then there would never be a charge on the house.

If your dad (or certain dependents) is living in their home while your mum is in a care home, it won't be included in the financial assessment. And it won't be included after his death.
I've been through it all recently, you've been given incorrect advice.

Thank you for the clarification.

But it’s also HER money isn’t it. Abd she has the right to spend HER money on her care

That's brilliant
That's good to hear
She probably needs a nursing home rather than a care home , especially as dementia gets more advanced.you will only end up moving her to a nursing home anyway,when the care home finds her needs become more advanced.
You could look further out ,see what's a bit further away ,a good care home will be worth the extra travelling to visit

Mum's had an assessment. Atm she only needs dementia care but we will chose one with a nursing home facility too as we wouldn't want to move her.if she needed extra care although many of the homes near us do have advanced dementia care facilities which is good.

We don't want to move mum to far out that wouldn't work for us. We will want to visit her most days and her friends are all older, they wouldn't want to travel miles to go see her. I'm on a lot of dementia carers support groups and the advice is always keep your loved ones as near as possible if they go into care. It would be a nightmare travelling miles in the middle of the night if she became unwell etc.

Sounds like you have everything in hand and know what you are doing
Your mum is lucky to have you x

Just be aware of how quickly the money runs down. We are in a position where DM has £400k in her name plus their joint property (which cant be touched since DF is still needing to live in it) plus pension. It's not a small amount of money. But that funds about 4 and a half years of nursing care. She is currently in for respite only (dementia) but we are trying to avoid using the money for as long as possible since once its gone its gone and she would then need to be in a local authority home which is not what we would want. If we had a crystal ball and could see how long she will Iive for we could make informed decisions but nobody has that so the best approach is to be cautious and very careful with the money at the moment - not spending unless it is essential.

MIL is in a care home, a nice enough one (and I’ve been in and out of many all my working life) but granted, at the cheaper end of the scale. She has so much in savings and investments that combined with her AA and pensions, the interest each month is enough to cover the fees. DH (an accountant) with POA, recently calculated that despite paying for 12 months care she recently ended the year £1000 up!!!!

Thank you. She has been a wonderful mum and I am happy to return the favour at the end of her life.

It's a nightmare knowing how to balance it all isn't it? My mum has roughly the same amount but we are aware at £1800 per week for the really lovely homes we have viewed that won't last long at all.

These ones often won't get LA funding so we looked at the others at the lower end. The last one we viewed I actually bawled me eyes out when I stepped out of the place. It was awful and I would not want mum in there and I can't stop thinking about all the poor people who were there, heartbreaking. We would like to keep her at home for as long as possible with respite care in between.

We are currently viewing care homes but all the ones of the cheaper side with their weekly fees have been dire. We will continue looking but so far things have not been great. We have several more to see so keeping our fingers crossed but we will start with respite to give us an idea.