How do I know if my child is ND…or just plain old fashioned naughty??

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I hope the thread title is taken in the way it’s intended..a little bit jokey.

but also, it’s a very genuine question.
my daughter is 8, and I’ve thought for a long while that she could be ND. This has been going on since she was around 3, but seems to have really gone up quite a few notches in the last few months.

it all seems to be behaviour related. She’s honestly either the most joyous person to be around, or she’s got me pulling my hair out. It’s as if she’s two different people, when she gets in to a tricky mood absolutely everything about her changes - from her voice to the way she physically moves. And there’s absolutely no getting through to her, she just has to come out of the other end in her own time.
she just doesn’t listen to us about anything, simply asking her to get out of the bath (even when she’s had a 5 minute warning) will result in us being told no, and then it’s just a fight from then on. We give consequences to her actions (again, after being warned) and when they happen she will go on and on and on, it’s so draining.
she’s also not sleeping. She will often be awake until gone 11 on a school night, which then means she’s tired and sets us up for more awfulness the next day.
She’s an absolute dream when she’s at school, being told off or doing something ‘wrong’ would mortify her, but at home she could not care less. My very limited knowledge knows that girls are very, very good at masking though.
I know this probably sounds like I’m just rambling on and that it all sounds like nothing, because honestly there’s no big list of big events, but it’s a constant thing that is just chipping away at us every day. I can’t remember the last time we had a nice day. There’s always something that results in an argument, or her screaming at us. We walk on egg shells, and the truth is I honestly cannot stand her when she’s behaving how she so often does.
but how do I know if we just need to really put our foot down and rule with an iron fist, or if she needs to be handled in a certain way that is different from our other child, and in a way we need to be guided on?
I’m sorry if this thread comes across in a shitty, stupid way, I don’t think I’m explaining myself or the situation very well at all. This is more than just a few tantrums, and I genuinely do not know what to do.

I would trust your instinct that something is up, especially if you have other children who have responded differently to
your similar parenting. I just wrote on another thread about my daughter, and the 'absolute no' and 'no bribes, no negotiation' about her from a very young age was one of the initial and clearest signs of ASD.

Though I did say on the other thread that early signs alone do not necessarily mean a diagnosis, so it is equally possible these things will fade or change with time. But if they don't, and if she's having problems (sounds like it, with sleep, social behavioural stuff) then you may be able to draw that connection.

Oh and the sleep issues too.

some of that sounds very like PDA behaviour.
There are some very useful threads and ti[s on PDA. Off the top of my head, when getting out of the bath, instead of saying you have to get out of the bath now, you might say - which towel shall we use, the blue one or the stripy one?
Or - do you want to pull out the plug or shall I do it?
Or - let's get dry and go and choose a story, which stpry shall we have tonight?
Which is still saying time to get out, but indirectly, and gives them some control (a choice) to help them do it.

She certainly sounds like she is masking at school

Does It have to be one or the other? It doesn’t sound like an ‘iron fist’ approach would be effective. How about trying out the approach you would use if she was ND regardless of diagnosis?

After all the label of ASD does not actually change anything in itself (and certainly a label from mumsnet won’t, and an official one will take forever).

But you could grant yourself a) a bit of grace to have things not go perfectly and b) permission to try out some new strategies anyway :)

Are you gentle parenting?

I feel like my daughter of the same age reaches a more mature personality some parts of the day but falls back in others, and getting things done is a constant negotiation. She was screened last year (every child in her school is screened) and is neurotypical.
She is also having trouble sleeping because she is thinking a lot about things she is old enough to pick up on (war and people dying). I need to look for some advice on how to help her with this. I wonder if your daughter might be dwelling on things too. It seems that current events are being talked about a lot in their class.
Why not seek evalutation? It sounds like it could help you to know either way.

Thank you for your response.

I’m very much in the dark regarding ASD, so will sit down tonight and see if anything else points in that direction.

I think I’m feeling more at a loss because it feels like parenting her is so difficult and such a stressful task at the moment, but also written down there really is no ‘look! Look at this!’ Headline, if that makes sense?

Thank you for your response and your tips.
I think I need to really sit down and have a read through some threads and see if anything is jumping out at me.

I absolutely see what you are saying here, and this may come across as really silly of me - but how do I know what approach I would take IF she was ND? As in, I honestly don’t have a clue on where to start looking for different ideas.

I’d say no, and it’s probably getting further and further away from that point as the days go on.

Things have gotten so tense that the other day I was very much Matilda’s dad and was giving ‘I’m big, you’re small, I’m right, your wrong, do as you are told’ vibes. It really has all gone to shit.

that’s a good point - we have a worry monster so I think tonight I’m going to make sure she sets aside some time to write some things down before bed, see if that helps. I can then tackle anything that’s bothering her.

Look up the Autistic Girls Network and see how masking can impact.

If your gut has been suggesting there is more going on, then I wouldn’t be quick to dismiss that.

Sometimes I've said to my daughter, look, it's 6pm, in the next hour you need to have a shower and practice your violin. Yesterday we tried a lot of ways to make that happen and it didn't work until we started shouting (or whatever happened). I don't think any of us had much fun yesterday. Can you think of any different ways we can get the things we need to do done?
One thing she asked for is swapping a daily bath for every other day and a good wash on the other days, and we agreed for the days she doesn't do sport. Sometimes giving her a bit more input or choice has improved the behaviour.

I have one child with asd with demand avoidance and one child who is neurotypical.

What is have found is that neurotypical children respond well and arent harmed by most techniques used for children with something different going on. They might not need them, but they are fine with them. Who doesnt want to feel comfortable and understand what's going on for instance?

But children with asd etc dont always respond well and can end up harmed by more standard neurotypical techniques.

So what I am saying is you may as well just try some more neurodiverse parenting techniques as the liklihood they'll work either way and your current strategy isnt working.

In terms of what i think of normal parening its basically reward and consequences.

The pda website has techniques specific to pda which can be useful.

There are lots of tips for autism for girls on line too.

Exactly! That’s why diagnosis matters, you just don’t raise an autistic child using the same techniques.
OP your child sounds just like mine, it took school number 3 to have competent staff and clock what was going on, and now we are waiting for assessment for ads. Good luck, it can be draining indeed

The best advice I was ever given (from a very experienced autism specialist) was that if the ‘tantrum’ ended when the child got what they wanted (in your case that might be to stay in the bath) then it is simply that, a tantrum. If it didn’t end then it may be worth seeing it as more of a ‘meltdown’ and indicative of needing further investigation. There is obviously much more nuance to individual situations, but I have found this to be a good starting point.

Also be aware that primary schools now are, I feel, completely over stimulating (for both children and adults). They are often overwhelmingly noisy, crowded and tiring places with constant disruption and very little calm. Part of it may be simple exhaustion at the end of a very busy day.

Agree with pp’s about the pda website, very useful.

this is a really good point.
There is a clear difference between tantrum and meltdown, but it isn't always easy to see form the inside.
meltdowns are distress - help I am overwhelmed I am not coping I can't do this.
tantrum is - I wnat that and you have said no.

But in either case it is important to remember that as soon as the brain is flooded with that emotion, their ability to make choices vanishes.
So once they are shouting/crying/screaming, there is no point in saying - you need to do that by the time I coudnt 5, because they are no longer able to make the choice to stop and do the thing you are asking.
Don't ask anything of them in a tantrum/meltdown. Do what needs to be done. (like turning off TV) and wait until they calm down. Then finish what needs to be done and come bakc to the cause later. Eg get them to bed and then tomorrow talk about what happened and how they felt and what you could do differently (like the pp with the violin practice)

You can be ND and naughty

The masking at school could be what's causing or at least heavily contributing to a huge problem at home.
Have you read about the 'coke bottle effect'?
It sounds like perhaps she's fawning at school because she feels unsafe there, she's using all of her energy, complying and people pleasing and coming home and letting it all out there.

Lots of neurodivergent people struggle with sleeping patterns so that is another box ticked.

My daughter didn't get diagnosed until she was 16. I didn't know much about autism until she was 13 which is when she got referred for assessment. When I look back some of the signs I would have picked up on had I known about them:

Verbal stimming- screeching very loudly when entering a quiet room.
Echolalia - repeating phrases either sentences someone has just said or repeating something off a TV show or video she had seen, may have been weeks ago over and over.

Didn't like tags on clothes. Had to have her shoes tied a particular way.. As tight as possible and needed many pairs of socks so her shoes felt really tight. Sticks to the same safe comfy clothes

Needing to sit in exactly the same spot at the table/in the car.

Sensory seeking, loved anything squishy, slippy, gooey (my son is the opposite to this.. Hates sticky, slippy, gooey... He's also autistic)

Small group of safe foods that she will eat.

Super sensitive to smell.

Very sensitive to temperature, especially heat and can become extremely dysregulated when hot.

Always moving, often hanging upside down from or jumping from the sofa or bed, jiggling her leg constantly while sitting down 'quietly'

Struggles to manage emotions, can go from perfectly fine to uncontrollable in what seems like seconds.

That's some of the things I can think of.

Just a thought, that maybe she finds the bath calming? Hence the struggle to get out? I agree with the other poster who said to not tell her she has to get out, rather offer choices so she feels in control. There's no real harm in adjusting bathtime if you can, maybe start it a little earlier and give her a little longer?

My DD2 has autism, she was diagnosed at 11. I genuinely don't think she would have been diagnosed earlier as her behaviour was quirky, but not so far from NT that it was clear she was autistic.

I've known that more standard parenting techniques didn't really impact her from an early age. What I would describe as "threats and bribes" (nicer than that, I promise) worked well on DD1. If I told her she needed to do something by the time I counted to 5, I wouldn't get to 3. With DD2, I'd get to 5 and we'd be staring at each other as I'd never needed to know what happened at 5.

She was a right pain to get her out of the bath. I'd have to pull the plug out and then watch her to stop her putting it back in. It's as if she doesn't have a concept of parental authority. Now that she's older, she showers and uses half a bottle of shower gel in the process. You can remind her to get out of the shower, but I think she likes the sensory experience too much, so just ignores you.

I've read about PDA, but I would struggle to implement the oblique suggestion approach. Partly because we have quite a few things to get through each day and my DD is world champion level at procrastination. We wouldn't get everything done and wouldn't be anywhere on time. She also isn't fooled by the false choice of options. If offered the pink towel or the blue towel, she'd just say 'no', she knows there's always the unspoken option of just doing whatever she wants.

To be fair, you sound like your DD is harder to deal with than mine. Mine doesn't scream and shout much, she just ignore us and is evasive. Mine is very time consuming.

OP, I don’t know if you can access a private mental health assessment for your DD? I did this for mine, who was/is a lot like you describe. They were eventually diagnosed with ADHD, which I hadn’t even considered. Apparently demand avoidance can go hand in hand with it. If you can get a full assessment the child psychologist will look at all possibilities so you really know what you’re dealing with. It’s so tough but hopefully you’re on the path to getting some answers and support. Best of luck.

You could read some books. A good one is Jeffrey Bernstein's 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child and Ross Greene's The Explosive Child is good too.

The PDA Society's PANDA strategies are good.

Also look up the shaken Coke bottle effect.

Doesn’t sound like a normal 8 year old with not sleeping and the constant battles. Having to ask for the same thing a million times is common in our home but doesn’t often end in a fight!

I mean to add that my DC, who is AuDHD, has had to take melatonin since age 7 to regulate her sleep. She doesn't seem to make enough naturally, which appears to be common with ADHD.