Help me sort through a few 'food myths'?

[MarmaladeWhiskers]

I would love to swap over to pescatarian, whilst also eating dairy. Whilst I care about animal welfare and the environment, my main reason is that I don't really like or enjoy other meat, apart from a bit of roast chicken on occasion. My favourite dishes include wild caught fish such as salmon, cod and sardines, with a bit of tinned mackerel/tuna.

But I do hear a lot of stuff online that over the years has put me off! Most scientific articles and health related advice suggests this is a great way to eat for many reasons. But anecdotal information on sites such as reddit, mumsnet etc often say the opposite. It's a bit of a minefield.

So I would like to ask, how true are these reports?
I have seen threads where people love to add that a veggie/health focused relative/friend they knew died younger or got cancer at 50, whereas the red meat eaters were longer lived.
I see this a LOT, and have no idea if it is common, coincidence, or just people talking shit on the internet.
Also, people reporting that they need red meat to function. That eating only fish and dairy left them weak and unwell.

Whilst diet is very personal and all of these things are likely valid to some degree, it has put me off going over to just fish. I am past meno so not as worried about lots of iron, but don't want to miss out on anything essential.

Anyone with experience?

There is nothing wrong with a vegetarian or vegan diet, you do have to take a certain amount of care that you get enough of the essential nutrients that other people get from meat, iron has already been mentioned - eat lots broccolli and spinach. vitamin b12 is another. The main thing is to have a balanced diet, don't swap meat for upf rubbish and consider the way your food is produced and sourced, The much loved avocado for example uses masses of water in it's production, soy farming is responsible for large amount of deforestation and has seriously affected the availabilty of native local food in South America.

Read Spoon Fed - Tim Spector's book about food myths. I am not usually one for self-help type books but I would say it actually changed my life.
My top take-aways from it:

1. avoid processed foods as much as you can
2. don't assume that buying local is better for the environment
3. vegetables should be the main focus of your diet
4. fish is no better for you than meat
5. a little alcohol is better for you than no alcohol (that's the one I cling to most!)

Obviously it's more nuanced than that and goes through detailed explanations.

@mambojambodothetango I'm surprised about the fish and meat one. I thought white fish was an excelent source of low fat high protein and oily fish had nutrients and omega 3 which are not easily found and absorbed in other foods. Is white fish really not better than roast pork?

You'd need to read the book but it's a matter of looking at the bigger picture to see how some benefits are offset. With the fish example, it's not that fish doesn't have the good stuff you mention but that there are other factors that mean it's no better for us overall than meat. Microplastics to mention one!

Omnivorous diets can be bad and leave you tired and anaemic
Vegetarian diets can be bad and leave you tired and anaemic
Vegan diets can be bad and leave you tired and anaemic

A GOOD diet in any category will leave you properly nourished and energetic.

If you are pescatarian (and Tim Spector eats fish twice a week) make sure you also eat plenty of pulses on your non-fish days, generally eat plenty of green veg including broccoli and peas, eat a range of other veg of different colours, eat wholegrains where possible (wholewheat bread), eat eggs, and cheese as you see fit, eat nuts sometimes.

Keep alcohol within recommended limits if you drink, try not to eat UPF biscuits all the time, don't eat massive bars of high sugar milk chocolate, don't live off pot noodles....

Stick to general principles, don't overthink every detail.

You'll be fine.

I'm intrigued by the alcohol advice as I had always thought that no alcohol would be best. It is essentially a poison after all! Can you explain more? I love a glass or two of wine!

I have some vegan friends and they eat well but there are some trace minerals that they have to supplement. However, I think if you are eating fish, eggs and dairy that should give you a decent amount of the trace minerals that they miss and i wouldn't worry - and you won't need to forcefeed yourself beans and pulses as those are good sources of protein anyway.

You need to read the book but essentially, he gives the example of mental health which can be improved by a small glass of wine with friends for example, is as important as (and works in conjunction with) your physical health. But I'm paraphrasing massively - it's worth reading what he says because the point is always to look at the bigger picture to avoid falling for 'myths'.

That alcohol point is complete bollocks btw. Tim Spector is a media doctor remember that… he wants you to buy his books and his app and watch his shows. He’s also a doctor (endocrinologist) NOT a dietitian! Those are two separate specialisms. Doctors spend 5 years learning about everything to do with the human body from anatomy to medications and diseases and spread of disease. A tiny amount on nutrition. Dietitians spend 4 whole years on nutrition and the effect on the body with smaller sections on anatomy, biology and medication.

Anything beneficial found in alcohol can be found in OTHER PLANT SOURCES that do not have alcohol. Alcohol damages DNA, shifts metabolic processes and causes mutations in your cells.

Again that makes 0 sense when alcohol literally damages your brain neurons and interrupts neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin (happy hormones).

Fish often has a lot of nasty stuff so there are guideline s as to the maximum you should eat

one person getting cancer is irrelevant. If you compare 2 groups of 100 people with different diets and group one gets ten cancer sufferers and group two gets twenty , then you would rather be in group one surely ?

processed meat outs you in group two as does lots of red meat

lots of fruit and veg matter

some groups it like ten versus eleven people getting ill / the effect is small - low levels of alcohol are like that

I didn't say he says that alcohol is good for you or that the benefits can't be found elsewhere (as PP mentions) - just that the myth can be broken down and looked at from all sides. You can argue with me or you can read what he says (or don't - up to you) and then decide.

You said that some alcohol is better than no alcohol. That’s how you phrased it and that is without nuance and misleading to people.

Yes, if the choice is between a glass of wine or suicide then obviously the wine is better. That’s a very unusual situation. But nutritionally - and we are discussing food myths not psychological theory- no alcohol is absolutely better than some. The only physical exception being if you are an alcoholic who needs to taper down to avoid seizures etc.

I'm not a faddy eater but am a nutrition bore. Main points of note:

1. Red meat is humans' major source of amino acids, in addition to the nutrients you know about, like iron and B12.
2. The iron from plants is much less well utilised by the body.
3. As you age, you need MORE bone and muscle building nutrients, not less. Protein, calcium, zinc and D3 are critical among these.
4. You can achieve an adequate dietary substitution system by adopting a very wide variety of veg sources or, conveniently, buy amino acids and the other required nutrients as supplements.
5. Fish contains too much mercury these days (industrial pollution) which is why the NHS recommends limiting it to twice a week.

There's no need to stress about any of this, just work out a palatable way to get all your nutrition. As you rightly suspect, people have near-cultish beliefs about diet and it takes some rational detachment to filter out the evangelism! I'm not immune to this: despite knowing better, I've got half a fridge shelf full of pills & capsules I should chuck out, and go through phases of counting my weekly plants or adding some miracle ingredient to everything I cook 🤦‍♀️

There's a lot of food misinformation out there, OP, especially from people who have a vested interest in wanting to continue eating poorly and attempt to justify it. An awesome book that brings the science out and is extremely heavily referenced is "How Not to Die" by Dr Greger. It's an incredible read and separates nutrition facts from fiction, making the science much more palatable and easy to understand.

I do know one person (albeit a teenage boy at the time) who was told by a doctor based on symptoms and test results to go back to eating meat after he turned vegetarian but I think in general, particularly if iron is less of a concern, your idea sounds very healthy. I was a vegetarian for years with limited dairy due to taste preference and when I introduced fish back into my diet I used to describe it as 'my brain is singing'. I felt amazing. 😀 I have since reintroduced chicken as there are apparently some links between lack of meat and hormonal issues/fertility, but because I can't bring myself to eat red meat I make soup with organic beef bone broth and take grassfed beef liver capsules, those could always be options if you want some of the benefits including protein in broth without eating meat? I also don't label my diet or myself, I eat the way I believe is best for me currently and I only eat high welfare/organic meat and not every day, usually once a week plus a couple of soups, with oily fish and scallops 2-3 times a week. I never eat it outside of the house so I can make sure it's the quality I want (and because it still feels weird to me to eat meat). I don't think my body is missing out on anything by avoiding cheap meat or ultraprocessed meat. You can always give it a go and do a blood test to check for nutrients once in a while? I think you can't go wrong with lots of plants and good quality protein and calcium from any source. 😀

If you care about animal welfare you wouldn't be eating dairy or fish. Dairy is very very cruel. A quick Google search will tell you that

No such thing as high welfare meat. Some of the so called high welfare farms have been exposed as being really cruel. The animals die the same horrible death. You would be as well ditching the so called high welfare and organic meat - because it makes zero difference to the animals who died in agony and fear so you could eat them

Go Google the Cadbury calves and then come back and say you care about animal welfare. Day old male chick's also get ground to death because they are a useless by product of the dairy industry - if you eat dairy you support that

Calves get ripped from their mothers at a day old and many of them get shot

Dairy is even worse than meat on so many levels

Astonishing that so many people think they care about animals while eating them - fish included

I am an omnivore, I would prefer to vastly improve animal welfare and farming methods, which also includes the pesticides on your vegan produce. I am not vegan and have no wish to become one so please take your aggressive identity politics elsewhere.

..............

Thank you to everyone else, some very useful posts here.

I'm pescatarian.
I don't know where you hear these stories about vegetarians dying younger. From the meat industry?

Many studies show the opposite - that vegetarians live healthier and longer lives. I'm not entirely convinced by some of those because they focus on very healthy vegetarians who would otherwise probably be very healthy omnivores like the seventh day adventists.

I think the healthiest diet would probably include small amounts of read meat and a moderate amount of white meat and fish, although it's possible to be healthy without them too.

Does that book really say that fish is no better than meat? What about the omega 3?
I also thought the small amount of alcohol thing had been debunked a long time ago (because in studies many of the people who never drink at all have chronic health problems which skews the result).

I have to admit that I have that book, but couldn't finish it!

Why do you mention peas specifically?

Ah yes, OK, that's also what I tell myself, that it's good for my 'wellbeing' and therefore for my health.

There are innumerable scientific studies that demonstrate that eating meat is linked to numerous cancers and heart disease, amongst other illnesses. It's perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Any anecdotal stories you've heard about people dying young due to a low/non-meat or dairy diet are likely to be neglecting other, very relevant, parts of the overall picture.