How many people don't know that Halloween is Irish/Scottish in origin?

[pumpkinscake]

Every year I see people on Mumsnet complaining that it's an American thing taking over the UK. But no, we exported it to the US. Doesn't everyone know this? How could you not know this? Clearly people don't know it, but I'm amazed that they don't.

I grew up in Lanarkshire and also the Highlands. No one said trick or treat, and you had to have a joke or an act to perform. One girl walked up our stairs on her hands and i remember a boy juggling apples! My lanterns were brutally carved from turnips. I dont recall any shop bought costumes but I doubt i paid much attention to anyone else!

I love the rustic version, but I enjoy the pantomimesque version too. And I am glad I dont have to take an apple corer to a turnip these days!

Exactly

Growing up in Munster in the 1970s, bonfire night was June 23rd, maybe because of the solstice. Unrelated to Guy Fawkes obviously.

The pagan festival of Samhain existed before Christianity came to Ireland and All Souls Day came into practice almost as a result of Christians in Ireland still adhering to some of the pagan rituals and festivals that had been traditionally practised. Many Pagan festivals were sort of subsumed into Christianity and I've always considered it a pragmatic response by the Catholic Church.

Fair enough, but no need to be rude.

Yep, in Mayo too.

Agreed. when I was a kid, some people would put a jack o'lantern outside their house, and there might be the occasional handful of teenagers who'd nicked one of their mum's white sheets so they could run up and down the street going "Wooooo!!" for a laugh, but that was it.

Halloween wasn't a thing for us, we were all far more interested in:
'Remember remember the 5th of November, gunpowder, treason and plot'.

Penny for the Guy ?
Groups of little boys outside the supermarket with a Guy Fawkes dummy
(old clothes stuffed with paper and tied with string)
collecting money to buy sweets

THAT is what is was until the late 80's in the south of England

True. I felt that you were being deliberately provocative with your OP. I apologise if I was wrong.

Bonna Night as it's known here , also a Celtic/Christian hybrid connected to midsummer.

My town in Lanarkshire went all out for bonfire night. The whole main street was closed off and a huge bonfire was built. Sometimes groups like scouts and guides cooked potatoes in it! I was too wee for that tho. But the bus to my family home passes through and last time I travelled the fire was being built so I guess they still do it! (Unless it was elaborate fly tipping)

Hallowe'en was a biv thing growing up in 70s Scotland with guising. We even had a Sunday school halowe'en party.

I was quite surprised when I moved to England in the mid 80s and people were horrified to have seen shops decorated for Halloween on a visit to Scotland. It was the devil's work etc etc

Can't bE doing with Trick of Treat. That is shite imported from the US.

Yes, in the 70s in Ireland we were carving turnips, apple-bobbing, dressing up (albeit in cardboard witches hats and masks) and going round the neighbours and being given sweets.

Trick or treating in England is different to guising in Scotland, and feels like an American import to me.

In my 80s/90s childhood we carved turnips (not easy!) and performed a joke/poem/song at each house - then we'd be given some sweets. As an adult I reflect that the poor adults had to open their doors repeatedly on Halloween to listen to bad jokes and singing all evening 😂. But we did only go to houses we knew.

We also did games like bobbing for apples....followed by trying to find maltesers in a bowl of floor with your (wet) face. Those were the days.

There’s a little bit of evidence for this, but All Saints and All Souls days were part of the very early Christian church calendar in Syria, Greece and the Mediterranean long before Christianity ever came to Northern Europe, though they often varied in dates during the year.

The dates of Allhallowtide became standardised as November around the 9th-10th centuries onwards. It’s a nice theory that the early church chose the dates as a way of usurping Samhain, but in reality they were not really very concerned with the pagan folklore of remote northern bits of Europe, though it wasn’t unknown as a festival by the 9th century. But it’s more likely that this was primarily about the politics of the early Catholic vs Orthodox Church calendars (All saints’ day was at a very different time of year in the Orthodox calendar, near to Easter; and the early Catholic Church liked to make sure it was doing the very opposite of whatever the Orthodox traditions were doing).

There’s also some evidence that the original Samhain was less of a “day of the departed” festival, and more of a harvest/fertility celebration, and that the emphasis on the dead came as much or more from within older Christian church traditions than from Celtic ones.

Late nineteenth century folklorists were extremely keen on constructing the idea of a big Celtic mythological tradition with occult roots, as part of overly romantic mythologising about British, Scottish and Irish folk cultures. So don’t underestimate how how of these “traditions” were elaborated on, or even outright invented, by Celtic revivalists in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries — this was particularly popular in Ireland in the early 20thc. as part of re-establishing a specifically Irish national culture that was very different to that of the colonising English.

It may have originated in Britain but the total bastardisation and the tacky materialistic way it’s practiced here now is American.

Yes, bonna night, exactly

I thought it originated in Wales

the commercialisation of Halloween is certainly American it’s a huge business but family there have told me it’s toned down quite a lot since Covid

I think most people know that, though as pps said, the version we see in mot media and being sold in shops is largely after a game of telephone through the Americas and corporations.

That those Halloween traditions were was invented by Scottish and Irish Christians seems to pass most people, thanks largely to Victorian myths a pp mentioned - some Victorian elites thinking they were very clever to pretend Christians couldn't invent anything and had to take from some undefined pagan group, homogenizing both, has really skewed things.

My mum was a witch so Halloween was great as a kid in the 80s. She us trick or treating. Bin liner costume, punky hair and black makeup.
Back then we carved up swedes because pumpkins are American and weren't a thing here. I can still smell the swede from the candle in it. The string cut into our hands because it was so heavy. We knocked on every door because most people didn't put up any decorations like they do now. So it was always pot luck whether we'd get a sweet or coin or shouted at and told to bugger off! All part of the fun really! Kids would exchange information on the safe houses to knock on. Lots of comeradery! Also, we said "tick or treat, penny or a sweet".

After all that was done and we were back home, my mum would move the furniture in the lounge so she could prepare her samhain ritual. Very fun!

Vikings celebrated Álfablót, Anglo Saxons celebrated Blod-Monath (blood month) in November where they slaughtered the livestock that wouldn’t be kept through the winter months, Irish/Scots celebrated Samhain. Christians have All Hallows Eve. Many festivals at this time of year happened because earlier cultures were more connected to the time of the year and also the seasons for survival. These seasons often influenced spiritual beliefs (beginning of winter equals a connection to the dead). Modern Halloween is something that’s evolved in popular culture (much from the US as it influences a lot of popular culture) and over the years has become mainstream. Many, if not most of our modern celebrations have their roots in these early ancient beliefs and customs which are often in many different cultures, although they may bear little resemblance to the original these days. However, I’m guessing most people complaining, are against the over commercialism of it which probably has been influenced by the US, rather than thinking it’s a purely a US invention.

I’m in NI and grew up in the seventies. There were turnip lanterns. Not a pumpkin in sight. We bobbed for apples and dressed up and went round the doors, where we were often expected to ‘do a turn’ in exchange for a couple of coins. We bobbed for apples. We ate monkey nuts and other nuts, like hazels, brazils and walnuts that needed a bit of effort with a nutcracker. We ate toffee apples. We lit sparklers and Bengal matches and dodgy (sometimes indoor) fireworks. Then there was the tradition of nearly breaking a tooth on a ring or a coin, wrapped in paper and placed inside the apple tart🤣 We also scared the crap out of each other telling ghost stories and getting carried away about banshees. It was great craic. My children are a bit too old for trick or treating now, but I was disappointed at how much Halloween had changed. They had an absolute ball tricking or treating, especially when people made a huge effort with decorations, but it felt so different from my experience.

There’s a useful article in The Conversation here about bits of this history, though the author doesn’t quite get up to the Celtic Revival period:

https://theconversation.com/the-ancient-irish-get-far-too-much-credit-for-halloween-239801

Some of the customs she describes in relation to Irish and Scottish folk traditions (like guising and peeling an apple to tell fortunes with the peel) also existed across England — though in England they were often part of Christmas-season traditions instead, for example at Twelfth Night.

Lots of the sources for the idea of Celtic versions of Hallowe’en/Samhain are actually just James Frazer’s late 19thc theories in The Golden Bough, which were enormously appealing to writers and folklorists at the time, including people like W B Yeats who were interested in reconstructing a Celtic mythic and cultural tradition for Ireland.

I do!!! But then I live in Derry it’s the best time of the year everyone both older people and children dress up for the week! It’s perfectly normal to see witches and ghouls doing their grocery shop in Tesco! It’s absolutely magical for children loads of things to do

The beginning of winter and the last harvest (as Halloween/Samhain/end of October are often thought to have been) were important even in prehistoric times, as people often faced a hard life over the dark months. It was common to lose people from illness/hardship during this period. So this time was often marked by many different cultures in similar ways, with an emphasis on the dead. I agree, the original festivals have been lost, but in the modern age people don’t share their concerns and just want to dress up and party and it’s become a commercial thing as has so much in modern life. It’s like Christmas.