New job, around 12 hours of training without pay - is that standard practice?

[Strawberryflavoureddogbiscuits]

This is for my dd17. I have been SE for years so I am kind of out of the loop when it comes to employment issues/procedures/laws etc.

So, DD is studying full time at college. This is her second year and one of the tasks the tutors have set the students is to find themselves work experience in the industry for which they are studying. This weekend dd has gone one step further and managed to secure a paid part time job at a small local business. These jobs are like hen's teeth around here and most of her friends in college are struggling to allocate a volunteer position let alone paid work so dd does feel fortunate.

However, she started training on Sunday and will need two further separate training sessions this week, totalling 12 hours. All of these training hours will be in-house, customer facing and actually working but shadowing the other employee (it's a job share position). She was told that she will not get paid for any of these training sessions. The last training session will actually be her first full normal working first day (approx 6-8 hours) and then she will apparently start her 'proper paid hours' the following week.

Is this normal practise? I know a lot of small businesses are running on a tight budget these days but it seems odd that they are not paying. I'd understand a couple of hours but 12 hours seems quite a few hours for no pay but maybe I am simply out of touch and we should chalk it down to experience for dd?

BTW, it's a small business owned by a local woman so no HR or head office etc.

Isn’t it illegal these days to not pay people for training?

She needs to be paid the legal minimum wage for a 17 year old. If the training hours mean that she is not now being paid this for the hours she is at work she needs to be paid the balance. It's the law.

www.acas.org.uk/getting-paid-for-mandatory-training#:~:text=close%20to%20it-,If%20you%20earn%20the%20minimum%20wage%20or%20close%20to%20it,you%27re%20doing%20mandatory%20training.

Legally she should definitely be paid.

But if she'd otherwise be doing unpaid work experience and this role was hard to get, I'd consider whether she wants to rock the boat.

This is illegal.

You can be unpaid if the activity is optional and you perform no useful tasks yourself eg if you are invited to come and spend a couple of days observing current employees at work prior to your actual start date. If it's required, and you are performing tasks (no matter how incompetently) then you must get at least minimum wage. It's ok for training pay to be lower than normal pay if the normal rate is higher than minimum wage.

It’s illegal.

Minimum wage is £7.55. How i read the guidance is that she needs to add her training ours and work hours for the month and calculate the minimum wage pay and then calculate the difference for her actual pay - that is what the employer should be paying for the training.

In reality as it's a short term job they obviously feel that paying for training for such a short term benefit is a waste for them- but legally they shouldn't.

It’s illegal

As far as I am aware lots of agencies make you do training for free.

NHS Professionals don't pay for mandatory training (but it is a zero hours contract - does that change things?)

It's illegal but if she says no then it's likely the opportunity will disappear.

It's absolutely rife and young people really don't have much redress. Which of them can afford a lawyer?

If they threaten ACAS or cause any issues they will find it even harder to find work.

Employers have become incredibly lazy, often working illegally with regards to trial shifts, hours, young worker's rights and choosing to use illegal workers to minimise costs to the business (which are very high to be fair).

Our model of the cheapest possible labour to keep business happy has led to them being able to do what they want.

that's the issue, I am not comfortable with the fact they are not willing to pay for training but then again a job in this line of work will be hard for dd to find at her age so she may need to suck it up. I think the best thing is to wait and see - if it appears the owner is going to take the piss out of dd in the future then she may need to re-evaluate whether she wants to stay in this job or not but it may be ok in the end.

Time will tell.

It's not a short term job though, it's a permanent Saturday job and they have said there may be an opportunity for a full time job when dd qualifies from college.

It really does irk me but as you say, if we raise this point then they may withdraw the job offer - I do hate how many businesses have young people by the balls when they are just starting out in the working world. We will suck it up and see what she is actually like as an employer, if she is far from ideal then I will encourage dd to leave, I don't want her to be taken advantage of.

Please don’t teach your daughter to just “suck it up.”

I am not teaching her to suck it up which is why I am questioning things and asking on here but it is a bit of a dilemma nonetheless.

It's so very hard for young people to get into the industry DD has chosen, the demand for positions outweighs the number available in our area, she and her college pals are all expected to find themselves work experience which would mean no pay regardless,. This however is a paid job but it appears the training period is not inclusive of any payment rewards.

When I drop DD off there at the weekend I may pop in to speak to the owner to clarify why she doesn't pay for training, maybe DD misheard her?

OK, so the daughter insists on being paid and then finds there isn't a job for her anymore... is that going to benefit her?

That's our concern.

I think we should just go with it, see how the next few weeks pan out and hope all goes well 🤞

Long-term, yes.

Why would you encourage your teenage child to work for a company that's blatantly breaking the law?

The owner won't speak to you.

It is hard and I get it, but the company are acting illegally. Why would you want to encourage your teenager into working for a company like this?

How much is her hourly wage though - the law is that the training can't push the total wage below the national minium wage for her age. It could be that added up over a month if she is getting paid higher than £7.55 an hour it's not worth making a fuss.

A lot of places, particularly pubs and restaurants are pulling this stunt now. The youngsters looking for a part-time job don't realise what a piss-take it is.

It needs to be stamped out.