To think state pension needs to be means tested , most sill claim way more than put in due to life expectancy. The current simply can't afford it anymore, it's out biggest single outlay..

[wishedforchild2016]

Aibu ?. Interested hear opinions for/against..

No, I wouldn't. But this idea that people will be happy to contribute to a system that they get nothing out of, while people who put nothing in are the biggest recipients of those efforts just won't wash for much longer. Especially as this inverted population pyramid puts an increasing burden on those who do work.

At some point we'll shift from 'what is fair' to 'what is do-able' and I don't think there will be many options on the table.

Yes the constant moving of goal posts means gives no encouragement to those have always contributed. I used to be quite left but over the years the tax and benefit system has just made me angry.

Or when the basics are properly defined. The view now of what is a basic is very different to even 20 years ago. If you give people money they spend it.

Lets not forget that the minimum wage means business already subsidies incomes from some over the value of their output.

Means testing is expensive. Maybe better to give it to everyone but claw it back through either income tax or some other sort of tax that would be deducted at source.

This .
This Labour government couldn’t even get a tweak agreed with their backbenchers so to get benefits adjustment means getting rid of this Government.
Its gauling that all the hard workers here are worrying about what the budget might bring or what their financial future looks like and can’t even afford to go out for a family pizza in a lot of cases yet benefit people have no such worries .
The only way to stop this benefit drain is generational . Employers have to pay a wage that is liveable . People have to work if they are physically able . All this mental health anxiety/ depression has to stop . People have to pay into a personal pension . People have to be self reliant and funded .

I hope you found it interesting!

They have some good episodes on there if you have a look. The one about depopulation is good.

Agreed. Some of those working in the NHS and CS are on low wages and claim UC top ups. Better to pay them a higher wage now meaning no need for UC top ups but reduce amount going into their pension. I would say 15 percent is still a very generous amount for an employer to pay. Emoyees also contribute to their own pension maybe increase this a couple of percent if they are earning more.

It will be eventually, that’s why they introduced mandatory opt out pension schemes for employees, so that it can be eventually phased out.

Lets not forget that the minimum wage means business already subsidies incomes from some over the value of their output

One of the interesting outcomes in the recent hike in minimum wage, not least the inflationary effects on the basics, particularly food costs, is that it means that many businesses have also had to axe planned wage rises for other workers. Making it less rewarding to climb the ladder and be ambitious, subverting yet more growth and productivity.

Yes, people forget that the whole tax credit system was simply a subsidy for employers, and yet another way in which the Blair government screwed up earning opportunities for generations while depressed the average workers income. Flood the country with graduates without creating an environment to absorb them and instantly devalue graduate jobs. Then bribe employers through tax credits to create low paid jobs to further fiddle the employment numbers.

Result - a whole new bunch of people with no choice but to vote for them to maintain their meagre standard of living, and a ballooning benefits bill. To top it all, commit the tax payers that need to pay this bill to ongoing contracts and interest payments from its off balance sheet spending on infrastructure and its clear that real structural damage was done to economy by Blair. And here we are, with Starmer and Reeves doing the same. Not deliberately - they just don't understand because they are so far out of the depth it's embarrassing. A laughing stock on the world stage

It's not 68 yet it's only just moved to 67 from 66.

I was born in the 80s and I think anyone in my generation is foolish to assume the state pension will stay, or not be means tested, or the age won't move significantly up. Or alternatively pensioners will end up being taxed a lot more, meaning that those with ok private pensions will in effect loose state pension through taxation.

It's quite clear that rug cannot be pulled from underneath the pensioners of today immediately, but the sense of entitlement and the voting block holding politicians hostage is tiring, it just drivers short termism and blocks actual, much needed, structural change. We see it with elections and with back benchers blocking the government....

Just to add it was a wrong turn of phrase ,saying to encourage assisted dying as i dont. What meant is i support assisted dying, in certain circumstances. Not encourage if healthy etc ,and still nice quality of life. This is a great debate ,and responses. Can see arguments ,from both sides.

It’s terrifying that the OP wants to ENCOURAGE assisted dying - not just have that option for people suffering desperately at the end of their lives. Is that supposed to be a response to saving money? What have we become?

I don’t know why I’m shocked any more however given some of the ghoulish remarks made on a different thread yesterday (oestensibly about the pending budget) regarding disabled children- a thread I had to leave because of its stomach-churning nature.

When it comes to discussion of benefits and the current situation in the UK I wonder how many people remember that Brexit was going to put 350 million pounds A WEEK back into circulation and specifically for the NHS… Has Brexit done anything other than cause expenses to rise (see house building costs)..,?

Remember how Boris Johnson promised new hospitals - 40 new hospitals- in 2019 to be built by 2030?. Not a single new hospital has emerged.

Remember that the main benefit for working age people (universal credit) was introduced by the coalition government?

The government we have recently voted in haven’t got a chance to change so much that’s problematic in such a short period of time…

UC costs last period was over £50 billion.
Pensions (state) same period around £110 billion.
DLA just under £7 billion.
PIP £21 billion

When I see figures like the above and people fighting about which sector of people’s lives to take money from I also think about:

£3.5 billion on prison services
Almost £54 billion on defence
£3 billion approximately on housing asylum seekers
almost £3 billion on overseas aid
Around £7 billion to tackle illegal immigration
£55 billion on primary and secondary schools

There’s a lot of focus on targeting vulnerable people - and I don’t mean people who commit fraud or “play the game” of obtaining the most benefits- because those people are not vulnerable.

Having a look at the UC figures should show an area ripe for change- employment should be paid properly so that people do not need to access benefits. I won’t comment on people who chose to work fewer hours to qualify for benefits (I mean that being their motivation) or other people who have a child once every 4 years to qualify or people who fake being single while having children etc with an alleged live-put partner just to qualify or fake being ill or whatever.

The expectation that the government will support people in old age or people who cannot work or fend from themselves should not be viewed as a threat to wealth holders or aspirational people but should be viewed as the hallmark of a humane and civilised society.

Means-testing benefits is expensive- and possibly prohibitively so. I would never support means-testing the state pension benefit.

@Callipygion I reach pension age in January 2026, DH died before claiming his. I looked into this a bit a year ago, this is one of the pieces of information I can find easily but there was more. I recently completed my claim for state pension and was asked about a deceased spouse. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that I will get some of DH’s pension

@Tryingtokeepgoing Thanks for writing about Blair’s economic blunders that is an aspect often overlooked.

In some welfare systems you only get out what you have put in. Spain for instance has a 2 tier pension system one based on your work history and how many actual contributions have been paid and one for people who haven’t worked, it rewards the people who have actually worked.

Society has also changed radically since the late 60’s early 70’s. Back then only 10% of households were occupied by a single adult, that has risen to almost 30% and it’s a global phenomenon not just the UK. Mainly due to older people but also the changes in marriage and divorce patterns.

Human success and liberal attitudes will ultimately be our demise, no more survival of the fittest.

If we create more disincentives for people to save for their retirement it's just going to make everything worse

Whatever, Rachel.

We won't get ourselves out of our economic hole by taxing everything and everyone to death by the way...

@strawberrybubblegum To add to your list of costs

Domestic Violence 66 billion PA.

People talk about the awful side of DV but rarely the financial side at state level.

@RetirementTimes I agree about welfare dependency, this goes back to Blair.

This! No way!

@beanbaggirs Someone who has never worked but claimed benefits that has had their NI stamp covered by the benefit claimed gets exactly the same pension as myself and my DH who were higher rate taxpayers for a few decades. So not everyone has put in to the system.

@BotterMon This is the big change of feeling caused by Starmer and Reeves and the thought of them meddling with peoples money who have made an effort and done okay but are not wealthy. My very left wing friend is a great example of how they are annoying their supporters her mortgage is paid off, her life savings are modest but enough to cover boiler breaking, small holidays, all very sensible. she is a couple of years off state pension and her pension will be a small one. She would if it remains like it is have a modest but ok retirement. I never ever thought she would turn on Labour but she is really angry.

I have a lot of very long friendships with Labour supporters, we all met as very young trade Union activists. I have always been more of a centrist, which bemused some of them.

So is this likely @Glowingup ? Have you not made the required NI contributions, and will be seeking pension credits, or are you a high level earner who's 'happy to pay more and more tax... whatever it takes'?

Perhaps the feckless among them would get off their arses and actually get a job for once? And if they didn't like it, well they
should have thought of that earlier.

That’s quite a big ask! The IFS produces good and accessible content, but you are asking for a summary of 50-60 minutes of research analysis, rather than having a go yourself while you travel/cook/wash up/garden/do a workout.! There are AI apps you can use to summarise podcasts and YouTube content. Maybe have a look for one of those?