Page 4 | Sentencing for Constance Marten / Mark Gordon

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:48

Also, on the father, I don't think holding a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD accountable for the whole of his life is fair at all, imagine if that was your own son? 14 year olds do NOT have mature brains, a 14 year old cannot be a diagnosed a psychopath, they aren't mature enough to be, the brain is still developing. Does anyone on here have a caution or conviction from when they are 14? Cannabis, shoplifting etc? Would you like that to decide the rest of your life? Effectively this couple didn't have a chance anyway, having worked in social services myself it is a forgone conclusion that a man with a history of violence is told to seperate from the mother or she will lose the children, they are rarely given a chance, but when his convinction was for a crime commited in childhood that seems an even harsher penality. Attonement, forgiveness and giving someone the chance to make amends used to be central pillars of christian society, not anymore it seems. I think that they are guilty of not jumping hoops, and of not being compliant just as much as they are guilty of negligence, because social work is all about risk aversion. I think minds were made up early on and that there was a negative feedback loop between the state and this couple that led to a snowball effect.

murasaki · 15/09/2025 23:54

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:48

Also, on the father, I don't think holding a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD accountable for the whole of his life is fair at all, imagine if that was your own son? 14 year olds do NOT have mature brains, a 14 year old cannot be a diagnosed a psychopath, they aren't mature enough to be, the brain is still developing. Does anyone on here have a caution or conviction from when they are 14? Cannabis, shoplifting etc? Would you like that to decide the rest of your life? Effectively this couple didn't have a chance anyway, having worked in social services myself it is a forgone conclusion that a man with a history of violence is told to seperate from the mother or she will lose the children, they are rarely given a chance, but when his convinction was for a crime commited in childhood that seems an even harsher penality. Attonement, forgiveness and giving someone the chance to make amends used to be central pillars of christian society, not anymore it seems. I think that they are guilty of not jumping hoops, and of not being compliant just as much as they are guilty of negligence, because social work is all about risk aversion. I think minds were made up early on and that there was a negative feedback loop between the state and this couple that led to a snowball effect.

So you have more sympathy for him being judged than with the woman he held hostage and raped.

That says a lot about you. None of it good.

AmberFrost · 15/09/2025 23:59

She should’ve left him as soon as she found out about his conviction.

Squiggles23 · 16/09/2025 00:20

Fatandfluffy · 15/09/2025 23:43

I used to be friends with Constance. She was lovely and kind. But also suffers with her mental health. She needs help not prison

How sad @Fatandfluffy - when did you know her?

I think it’s no coincidence she spent that time in the cult. I suspect she was left very damaged and it’s not playing out again with Gordon. I’m sure she has some real trauma in her past.

There’s clearly no excusing what happened to Victoria. However, it does seem like doing a public appeal to hunt down the couple can’t have helped. They had the money to stay in airbnbs etc and I’m sure she would have stood a better chance if they weren’t on the run from everyone (public & police). It’s all just very sad.

prh47bridge · 16/09/2025 00:26

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:38

Just playing devil's advocate a little bit here, but it is possible and has often been the case that 'expert' evidence has been overturned or ruled biased later, so new evidence could come in the form of alternative expert opinion I presume and that was what I meant with regards to cot deaths, originally the evidence in those cases said the mothers MUST have killed their children. One experts opinion is one experts opinion...and if she genuinely did fall asleep on the baby and that is how the poor little one died, should we imprison ALL mothers who accidentally smother their children? As far as I am aware women in that situation are rarely if ever treated as grossly negligent unless under the influence of drugs or alcohol, and if they were it would make anyone terrified to have children because the fact is accidents can happen to anyone. It is a good job the judge ruled this hypothermia in that sense as otherwise that would set a potentially alarming precedent if the primary cause for a 14 year sentence was smothering. Also smothering a child in a coat is entirely incidental to living in a cold tent, if the child was in a coat it was not cold. Yes, I absolutely agree that living in a cold canvas tent in winter was unacceptable if they did not have a stove in the tent. Many people DO successfully live in tents all over the world in freezing temperatures, that is how our ancestors lived for 10s of 1000s of years, but usually with some source of heating within the tent (Native Americans on the great plains for example). I certainly am not defending that their children should not be removed from them following this incident and on the accumulation of risk of harm (though whether it would have occured had the first four not been forcibly removed is questionable.) They were going to lose the baby anyway though weren't they? If they were told they could be assessed and could keep the baby under certain conditions I doubt they would have ran. Expecting a pregnant woman to think about the baby and relinquish it is all well and good but who on earth would do that if they thought they were being wrongly persecuted because of their lifestyle choices? Also hormones and maternal attachment do not easily make women want to relinquish their children. I am merely pointing out there IS an alternative narrative to this, if you listen to their own, actually quite consistant narrative, they are anti authority, anti state hippy types and acted in a way that was in accordance with that philosophy.

The nature of this expert evidence means it is relatively unlikely to be overturned. However, if it is, we revert to death by smothering, which is what Marten and Gordon claimed. They would still be guilty of the offences of which they were convicted, and the sentence would still be the same. That would not be an alarming precedent at all. I have no idea why you think it would be. Yes, they are anti authority types, but they consistently acted in ways that showed they did not care about their baby. I'm afraid your attempt at an alternative narrative simply doesn't work. Much of what you write is completely divorced from the evidence.

HeddaGarbled · 16/09/2025 00:28

She needs help not prison

She won’t engage with help.

She needs prison to stop her having any more babies.

Don’t see it as punishment - see it as protection for the next baby and the next and the next.

HeddaGarbled · 16/09/2025 00:35

She should’ve left him as soon as she found out about his conviction

Or maybe after he pushed her out of a first floor window when she was pregnant.

Don’t pretend the violent rape was the one off mistake of a teenager. It was just the start.

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2025 00:39

Reading the sentencing remarks is a good corrective to thinking anything except both were guilty as charged.

I have a horrible feeling that one day after they both get out I will be reading about her death at this man’s hands. But that doesn’t change the fact that she resisted every scrap of help offered every step of the way, and grossly neglected her children.

Gingerkittykat · 16/09/2025 02:06

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:48

Also, on the father, I don't think holding a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD accountable for the whole of his life is fair at all, imagine if that was your own son? 14 year olds do NOT have mature brains, a 14 year old cannot be a diagnosed a psychopath, they aren't mature enough to be, the brain is still developing. Does anyone on here have a caution or conviction from when they are 14? Cannabis, shoplifting etc? Would you like that to decide the rest of your life? Effectively this couple didn't have a chance anyway, having worked in social services myself it is a forgone conclusion that a man with a history of violence is told to seperate from the mother or she will lose the children, they are rarely given a chance, but when his convinction was for a crime commited in childhood that seems an even harsher penality. Attonement, forgiveness and giving someone the chance to make amends used to be central pillars of christian society, not anymore it seems. I think that they are guilty of not jumping hoops, and of not being compliant just as much as they are guilty of negligence, because social work is all about risk aversion. I think minds were made up early on and that there was a negative feedback loop between the state and this couple that led to a snowball effect.

If he had smoked a few joints or shoplifted when he was 14, then nobody would care. He broke into a house, raped a woman, broke into another house and physically attacked another woman.

He's proven from a young age that he is violent and dangerous. The fact that he was violent with nurses after baby 1 was born and potentially threw Constance out of a window proves that he is still dangerous.

AnAlpacaForChristmasPleaseSanta · 16/09/2025 08:04

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:48

Also, on the father, I don't think holding a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD accountable for the whole of his life is fair at all, imagine if that was your own son? 14 year olds do NOT have mature brains, a 14 year old cannot be a diagnosed a psychopath, they aren't mature enough to be, the brain is still developing. Does anyone on here have a caution or conviction from when they are 14? Cannabis, shoplifting etc? Would you like that to decide the rest of your life? Effectively this couple didn't have a chance anyway, having worked in social services myself it is a forgone conclusion that a man with a history of violence is told to seperate from the mother or she will lose the children, they are rarely given a chance, but when his convinction was for a crime commited in childhood that seems an even harsher penality. Attonement, forgiveness and giving someone the chance to make amends used to be central pillars of christian society, not anymore it seems. I think that they are guilty of not jumping hoops, and of not being compliant just as much as they are guilty of negligence, because social work is all about risk aversion. I think minds were made up early on and that there was a negative feedback loop between the state and this couple that led to a snowball effect.

Oh you are so trolling us now.

But yeah, sure. Let's all #BeKind to a violent rapist.

Would you feel so sympathetically to him if had been your daughter/mum/sister/friend he'd raped?

BunnyRuddington · 16/09/2025 08:08

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2025 00:39

Reading the sentencing remarks is a good corrective to thinking anything except both were guilty as charged.

I have a horrible feeling that one day after they both get out I will be reading about her death at this man’s hands. But that doesn’t change the fact that she resisted every scrap of help offered every step of the way, and grossly neglected her children.

I was reading the sentencing remarks yesterday and thought exactly the same thing.

She had had every opportunity to leave him and start a new life free of violence and control but chooses him every time.

sashh · 16/09/2025 08:28

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 17:34

I will freely admit that I am inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think the sentence is too long and unfair and reminds me of mothers jailed for cot deaths. There is no proof that the baby died of hypothermia, it is an unsound ruling and an appeal now has even stronger grounds. They were not on trial for their previous four children, they were already found guilty of concealing the death of a child, their biggest crime after the potentially accidental death of their child seems to be their distrust and dislike of the state and traditional society, which is not a crime and doesn't deserve a lengthy prison sentence. Also can you imagine having 4 of your children removed? Especially if YOU don't believe that raising them in an alternative way was wrong? That is going to lead an already fragile person to spiral into something far worse and the evidence strongly suggests that she is fragile and paranoid due to PTSD. She was assessed as a suitable mother in Ireland but the state still took her children away when she returned to the UK. She should have stayed there and had a fresh start, far too judgemental and risk averse here. I feel compassion for the child AND for the parents. Without wider family support systems in place I would have had to make the same decisions as the social workers here because it was an unacceptable level of risk, but risk does not automatically equal harm, or that they are monsters. Yes, they were bad for each other, yes they were not fit parents when together, but not worthy of a 14 year sentence. I do wish they had had the common sense to report the death to the authorities immediatly to establish a correct cause of death, the fact they did not is consistant with their general approach to life and the fact they were on the run, not in itself evidence they actively caused the death through hypothermia. I'm not sure I'd be thinking sensibly had my baby died either. As said, maybe I'm too soft, but I would like to believe there are alternative narratives here that they were misguided and stubborn but not necessarily evil baby killers.

There is a bible story (I'm atheist but the moral is the same).

Two women are brought to Solomon, they both claim that a child is theirs.

Solomon tells the guard to cut the baby in half, the true mother begged for the child's life, even if it meant being raised by the other woman.

That is what mothers do, they do the best for their child even if it means they do not see their child.

Going on the run with a new born was never going to be in the interests of the child.

RIP Victoria.

crappycrapcrap · 16/09/2025 08:59

We won’t know the exact cause of death but the neglect is very clear. Their focus was entirely on evading professionals/playing hide and seek, all the while forgetting their newborn baby needed care, she had no antenatal care, no medical checks after birth, she wasn’t nurtured in any way. Seeing that tiny baby in a buggy with just a thin baby grow whilst parents are in big coats just demonstrates how little thought went into their daughters needs. It was all about them.

Marten had a broken spleen by Gordon, jumped or was pushed from a window, consistently avoided medical attention in numerous pregnancies and was seemingly consumed by infatuation that was the priority over her children.

The children weren’t removed in one swoop - it was a long traumatic and harmful experience for them living in their mother’s care. The huge police presence and hunt was entirely necessary as it was known that Victoria was at considerable risk.

Lalgarh · 16/09/2025 09:10

Iirc Martens father left the family to join a cult. She is seemingly recreating the same pattern. To her it seems like Gordon is her God

Tigresswoods · 16/09/2025 11:10

I think it was implied

viques · 16/09/2025 11:27

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:48

Also, on the father, I don't think holding a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD accountable for the whole of his life is fair at all, imagine if that was your own son? 14 year olds do NOT have mature brains, a 14 year old cannot be a diagnosed a psychopath, they aren't mature enough to be, the brain is still developing. Does anyone on here have a caution or conviction from when they are 14? Cannabis, shoplifting etc? Would you like that to decide the rest of your life? Effectively this couple didn't have a chance anyway, having worked in social services myself it is a forgone conclusion that a man with a history of violence is told to seperate from the mother or she will lose the children, they are rarely given a chance, but when his convinction was for a crime commited in childhood that seems an even harsher penality. Attonement, forgiveness and giving someone the chance to make amends used to be central pillars of christian society, not anymore it seems. I think that they are guilty of not jumping hoops, and of not being compliant just as much as they are guilty of negligence, because social work is all about risk aversion. I think minds were made up early on and that there was a negative feedback loop between the state and this couple that led to a snowball effect.

In principle I agree with you, but his behaviour since can’t be put down to an immature brain.

viques · 16/09/2025 11:37

The most shocking part of the case to me is the way they abandoned Victoria ‘s body in a carrier bag, buried under rubbish and then refused to say where she was when they had been detained. Surely if your child dies in those awful circumstances you would treat their body with love and tenderness, using whatever resources you have to show them respect, which by default includes allowing other people to take their body somewhere where it can be shown human decency. The fact that they abandoned her tells me all I need to know about their unhealthy relationship.

Glowingup · 16/09/2025 11:40

viques · 16/09/2025 11:37

The most shocking part of the case to me is the way they abandoned Victoria ‘s body in a carrier bag, buried under rubbish and then refused to say where she was when they had been detained. Surely if your child dies in those awful circumstances you would treat their body with love and tenderness, using whatever resources you have to show them respect, which by default includes allowing other people to take their body somewhere where it can be shown human decency. The fact that they abandoned her tells me all I need to know about their unhealthy relationship.

Yes it’s disgusting and shows they didn’t give a shit about her or any of their other kids. Ditto the way they cancelled appointments to see the kids in care. They really don’t give a crap. I can’t believe people are excusing their disgusting actions and saying they are just hippies. They are sociopaths and their poor children were so unlucky to have them as parents.

OliviaBonas · 16/09/2025 15:27

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 23:48

Also, on the father, I don't think holding a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD accountable for the whole of his life is fair at all, imagine if that was your own son? 14 year olds do NOT have mature brains, a 14 year old cannot be a diagnosed a psychopath, they aren't mature enough to be, the brain is still developing. Does anyone on here have a caution or conviction from when they are 14? Cannabis, shoplifting etc? Would you like that to decide the rest of your life? Effectively this couple didn't have a chance anyway, having worked in social services myself it is a forgone conclusion that a man with a history of violence is told to seperate from the mother or she will lose the children, they are rarely given a chance, but when his convinction was for a crime commited in childhood that seems an even harsher penality. Attonement, forgiveness and giving someone the chance to make amends used to be central pillars of christian society, not anymore it seems. I think that they are guilty of not jumping hoops, and of not being compliant just as much as they are guilty of negligence, because social work is all about risk aversion. I think minds were made up early on and that there was a negative feedback loop between the state and this couple that led to a snowball effect.

He also threw Constance out of a first floor window as an adult as others have said. I would also like to ask if you would feel this way if it was you or a woman you loved who was woken in the night by a masked intruder, held against your will at knifepoint for around 4 hours and sexually assaulted whilst your young children slept in their beds nearby.

I also feel that his violence would have escalated to kill Constance eventually. The fact that she had the financial resources to leave and the chance to be with her children and she didn’t take it is beyond my comprehension.

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2025 15:40

There is a huge difference between a kid who shoplifts a t-shirt at 14 and a kid who violently rapes someone at 14. Come on.

You only have to read some of the court documents to see that he absolutely wasn’t written off. The family court judge wanted the fact that Gordon showed some moments of genuinely good and loving parenting to his kids on the record, so that the children would know if they ever want to look in the future, that as far as he was able, they were special to him and loveable. None of that alters what happened. Their baby DIED after suffering for days. They were incredibly erratic at turning up for the very limited time they had with their older children. They prioritised themselves and each other, every single time, over the children. I don’t think they were a borderline case at any time.

rainbowunicorn22 · 16/09/2025 15:43

I did not realise that there were already four children i think it was taken into care, hence why they went on the run, thinking they could beat the system. it was awful thinking that that poor baby froze to death in the tent, then was just dumped in a carrier bag in a shed. she could have had a good life, but when she got mixed up with him, that speaks volumes about her. He has a bad past and obviously has not changed

BunnyRuddington · 16/09/2025 15:52

Last night I read a report on the BBC from a Journalist who has sat through both trials. I had no idea on the sheer level of disruption they have caused. I didn’t know until yesterday that he has been arrested in a Maternity ward too.

Unless they change dramatically I can’t see either of them getting parole.

IdBeLionIfISaid · 16/09/2025 16:03

greekyogurtaddict · 15/09/2025 17:34

I will freely admit that I am inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think the sentence is too long and unfair and reminds me of mothers jailed for cot deaths. There is no proof that the baby died of hypothermia, it is an unsound ruling and an appeal now has even stronger grounds. They were not on trial for their previous four children, they were already found guilty of concealing the death of a child, their biggest crime after the potentially accidental death of their child seems to be their distrust and dislike of the state and traditional society, which is not a crime and doesn't deserve a lengthy prison sentence. Also can you imagine having 4 of your children removed? Especially if YOU don't believe that raising them in an alternative way was wrong? That is going to lead an already fragile person to spiral into something far worse and the evidence strongly suggests that she is fragile and paranoid due to PTSD. She was assessed as a suitable mother in Ireland but the state still took her children away when she returned to the UK. She should have stayed there and had a fresh start, far too judgemental and risk averse here. I feel compassion for the child AND for the parents. Without wider family support systems in place I would have had to make the same decisions as the social workers here because it was an unacceptable level of risk, but risk does not automatically equal harm, or that they are monsters. Yes, they were bad for each other, yes they were not fit parents when together, but not worthy of a 14 year sentence. I do wish they had had the common sense to report the death to the authorities immediatly to establish a correct cause of death, the fact they did not is consistant with their general approach to life and the fact they were on the run, not in itself evidence they actively caused the death through hypothermia. I'm not sure I'd be thinking sensibly had my baby died either. As said, maybe I'm too soft, but I would like to believe there are alternative narratives here that they were misguided and stubborn but not necessarily evil baby killers.

Well then thank god you weren't either judge nor jury. Your comments are actually offensive.

NoCommentingFromNowOn · 16/09/2025 17:24

I haven’t heard anything about either of their families.

Constance - mum was there for the first half yesterday. Dad? Two siblings? Not heard anything about either.

Mark - mum still in the US? I think he has an older sister too?

Was anyone coming to the trials?

HonoriaBulstrode · 16/09/2025 17:48

The most shocking part of the case to me is the way they abandoned Victoria ‘s body in a carrier bag, buried under rubbish and then refused to say where she was when they had been detained.

At the time, I really felt for the police officers and others who were searching for Victoria when the two of them were in custody and refusing to say where she was. They must have been desperately hoping to find her before it was too late, but knowing the longer it took the less chance there was of finding her alive.

At least when she was found, they knew it wouldn't have made any difference if they'd found her sooner - it was already too late when the two of them were arrested.