How to separate out the autism from the ‘naughty’ behaviour?

[Thunderclapped]

DS is 6 and probably autistic. We’ve had a great summer where I thought he’d perhaps outgrown some of his autistic traits but as to be expected a new year at school has him appearing (to me) to be slightly disregulated.

So he’s behaving a bit babyish, baby voice, tiptoes, short temper, hands over ears sometimes. He insists he is loving school and there is nothing that would make it better for him - it’s perfect in his eyes.

But we’ve just had a really mixed day. He struggles in shops but he really wanted to go out to a specific place. We did and bought him a £10 book which he was thrilled with. Then in the supermarket on the way home he had a big meltdown over ‘needing’ to buy a teddy bear. We’re fairly firm with him, we didn’t buy it and were very clear that the behaviour was unacceptable.

But now we all feel a bit crap. I told him he appears spoilt and ungrateful which was probably the wrong thing to sat. Maybe he’s not in control of his impulses and behaviour. But equally maybe he is …

So how do I know what is due to autism and what is due to behaviour which would benefit from firm boundaries - it was verging on the kind of tantrum a 3 year old would have but we just about managed to avoid the screaming and clinging onto shelving units!!

Other examples include things like being very impatient when waiting. We try to monitor his behaviour and are pretty good at seeing when he’s reached his limit and have so many strategies like fidgets, where’s wally books in bags, all manner of distractions.
But sometimes I want to shout: ‘no! You can bloody well stand there and wait!’

I wonder whether our accommodations mean he’s not learning how to behave properly.

I always gave my dc pocket money. They could spend it but once gone it was gone. They would then make an informed choices and were less likely to ask for things.
I am parent to an autistic child and only was this sounds related is if he finds shops too noisy/busy. The asking for things is a typical child thing to do especially if you sometimes do buy things. Where the autism might come in is that he expects life to follow rules. So he asks for the book and is bought it so asks again and doesn’t understand a different answer.

I take photos on my phone of what they want and 'add it to the list'. List is nonexistent and photos get deleted after a few weeks.

I'd say at this point in the term most 'naughty' behaviour is because they're bloody knackered with the routine. I'd try and build in fewer trips out to the shops at weekends and more down time so they can process the week a bit.

We tried pocket money but it was a disaster, he couldn’t save, couldn’t cope with not having saved yet would be scrabbling around to spend every penny in any shop. We realised it wasn’t working when he was trying to buy single screws from a DIY shop because he had enough!!

We prepared him well for the shop, told him what we were buying (making it clear there would be nothing else). I guess with hindsight one of us should have stayed in the car with him as he’d already done a lot that day.

I think I find it difficult because he’s so clever and I expect that should translate into him also being rational and reasonable but this isn’t the case. And I do understand that but in a given moment it’s hard not to get frustrated.

We’ll let him have a good rest day tomorrow doing Lego. He is probably just knackered!

My 7yo has ADHD and I have had a bit of a realisation recently - I think fairly often he does something (e.g. overreacts to his brother/asks for something in an entitled way/makes a rude comment) which makes me (mentally) go "FFS!!" and I might respond in a bit of an irritable way, which then causes him to blow up and then - well you know how it goes trying to address that kind of behaviour in the moment, I'm sure.

The thing is, me being irritable or saying "DS. Come on/Watch it/Hey." this doesn't actually explain to him what it is that I am objecting to or what I am expecting him to do. I'm reacting as though he ought to know better and should be able to extrapolate from my tone that I'm irritated, meaning his behaviour isn't OK, probably because a NT child his age would know better. But the fact is, he either doesn't know better, or he doesn't know how to do better - it's not like he's pushing his luck in a moment, as all children do, because this kind of thing happens ALL the time. It's really predictable, if I sit down and think about it. What I should probably do is correct the tone in a more neutral way by modelling what I want him to say instead. There's no sense me being annoyed with him, despite the behaviour being genuinely annoying, because my annoyance isn't going to help him learn what to do, if that makes sense?

I made an analogy in another thread earlier about behaviour being related to skills (which I think it is close to 100% of the time) and I said if the skill was something like speaking French, you wouldn't expect "getting annoyed" or having a boundary to magically give them the ability to speak fluent French. You'd expect in the short term to need a translator, use simpler or shorter phrases, use pictures/sign language, and so on. This is like the accommodations and scaffolding we do for our ND children. And the English speaker can also of course learn French, but it will be slow progress over time and they will probably need a lot of those accommodations for a while.

The thing is that if you move to France and work in an English speaking company and only have English speaking friends, you will probably not learn to speak French. I live in Germany, and my husband has done exactly that and can barely understand German after 13 years, because he relies on Google translate so much. Whereas I am fairly fluent, not native level, but I can get by, and that's because partially by my own choice and partially by necessity, I've had conversations with the children's schools and Kindergartens, I've been to German toddler groups, I've worked in a German speaking environment. I used to need people to translate for me and now most of the time, I don't.

So I think if you want to work on something like waiting without distraction, or for him to understand when he can and can't ask for toys or cope with pocket money, it probably does help to try to stretch these things a short way. Pick one or two things to target, rather than just vaguely trying to work on everything at once, but it doesn't need to be all or nothing with accommodations. And I agree with what both you and a PP said that once they get dysregulated it's much harder for them to do anything, so understanding that fluctuating capacity is helpful.

But things like waiting and managing money are basically skills, and they can be practiced and worked on by stretching a little at a time and starting small, you don't find growth in the comfortable zone (fully accommodated) and you don't find growth in the stress zone (being thrown in the deep end). Time sometimes helps, so sometimes you can just accommodate accommodate and then one day they suddenly don't need it any more because some other skill/process has developed in the background making that expectation easier for them. Sometimes children who are extremely dysregulated all the time need a LOT of accommodation in order to get them into a more comfortable, manageable place. But if he's generally coping then I think you could probably pick one or two things to try and work on. I just wouldn't work on it primarily with consequences, I'd try to make stepping stones from where he is to where you want him to be, and if it's not working then you need smaller steps.

And also - I don't think you have to be perfect all the time and say the right thing every time. It's much more of a general thing and overall patterns rather than individual moments.

I think regardless of weather it’s the autism making it impossible for him to manage or the accommodations failing to teach him appropriate behaviour the response needs to be the same. Observe the triggers, think about what your goal is, take steps to teach him what to do, practice practice practice.

Autism I think. It is a huge task for parents not to get annoyed with irritating things, as they just can't take it. He understood the no, he just didn't like it and you didn't like the way he showed that. ( He won't have either).

Over time you practice helping him be less explosive, communicate effectively, deal with disappointment. He will get there.

I sometimes think autism means they have reactions like they are younger. I'd say - he is 6 but age 3 with disappointment. I'm not sure if others find that offensive, but he helps me. Soon he will be age 4.

My ds is nearly 10 and is unrecognisable from a year ago.

Why take him to the shop and the supermarket???

That's your need, not his.

If you don't take him, he can't have a 'meltdown'.

Emotionally he is about 1/3 younger than his actual age.

Tantrums like a 3 or 4 year old are to be expected - but you also hold the boundaries. Do it in a kind way though - shaming him for being unable (yet) to manage his emotions won't help.

It's too much stimulation for him.

Like all children, autistic children need boundaries- like not buying a teddy bear. But the mindset shift is that with an autistic child you fully expect to need to support your child through their feelings whilst not budging on the boundary rather than getting annoyed or name calling. As parents to autistic children our own personal emotional regulation is probably the biggest thing we have to cultivate because we need to be leading by example and co-regulating our child. No judgement we’ve all had bad days and said things we regret.

DD1 is 19 and still struggles with this stuff. I think it's worth realising that a lot of impulsivity driven behaviour is 'in the moment'. So he was delighted with the book and he really did want it in that moment. But once he got to the shop, he really wanted the bear, and had you asked him at that point, he might have been willing to give the book back to get the bear (or he might have been torn and want both). But the two will likely be completely separate in his mind. Whereas your logic says 'We've already spent £10 today so you should be satisfied'. It's the thrill of the buy, not the thing that was bought.

Also, you took him to the shop after going somewhere else. He used all his 'good behaviour effort' at the first place. He didn't have any left for the shop.

We tried pocket money but it was a disaster, he couldn’t save, couldn’t cope with not having saved yet would be scrabbling around to spend every penny in any shop. We realised it wasn’t working when he was trying to buy single screws from a DIY shop because he had enough!!

So for example with this - to make smaller stepping stones, I'd probably separate out saving and spending, or try to use some kind of tool (scaffolding) to make saving more visual for him.

Wanting to buy individual screws in a DIY shop is something my DS7 would want to do! When he has money it's like he is immediately searching for something - anything - to spend it on! Stopping to consider two different options (let alone the myriad of possible options in the universe) is beyond him. And maybe, actually, that's not a bad thing to let him do as a first step. Give him an amount of money you are happy to lose (or, really, spend on this learning experience) like £2 a week or something, and if he treats it like a magnet and then goes out looking for the first bit of metal (opportunity to spend it), that's OK. He's having an experience of what it means to have money and exchange it for goods and own something in return. I've noticed that when DS is exploring a concept, he wants to do it almost obsessively in a very deep and intense way. While other children might go around a DIY shop gleefully calculating what they can buy but ultimately decide a screw is a bit boring, DS would buy the three screws, and then the next day he would buy whatever unsellable rubbish is reduced to 20p, and the next day he would buy 1 piece of paper from the craft shop even though we have armfuls of paper at home. But he would be having an experience of buying things, and there would be lots that went into that experience that he would be taking in that I would never have noticed, or I would have wanted to save him from the disappointment of not being able to buy something else later because he had spent his money on screws - but it was OK for him to have that experience.

If he wants to do this a lot and you are actually concerned about the amount of junk you are accumulating, maybe play shops. You could play shops a LOT. Let him be the customer, be the bank manager/work boss and give him a set amount of money and set the prices. Then let him be the shopkeeper and the bank manager and set the prices and the budget. Look for board games which involve money - there are a few Orchard Games if you don't want to sit through Monopoly. There are LOTS of computer games which involve money/trading/bartering.

Maybe he just needs to fully explore that experience of spending first, before he can think about saving. Of course, during this experience of spending, he is bound to come up against things he wants to buy that he doesn't have enough money for, but maybe at first the response needs to be sorry, you don't have enough for that. This is good for maths skills as well.

Some things we did for my older son to help him with saving - visual charts where he could colour in his progress towards it so he knew what he was working towards and how far he'd got, him giving the savings over to me where I would keep them so he couldn't dip into them, I also added a very exaggerated version of "interest" e.g. we added 20p for every £1 he saved, which reduced and became less frequent as he got older.

I think personally I would probably separate out things like birthday/Christmas money if you do decide to do the pocket money experiment thing - keep it separately, and explain, perhaps, that when you get money for a present, that is different because you want to do a specific trip for that "birthday shopping", so that you can take a photo of the thing and send it to the person who gifted the money to say thank you and show them what you spent the money on.

And, thank you for prompting me to think this through, because I have realised through writing it that my DS probably does need some pocket money of his own to spend unwisely if that is what he wishes I have a good "excuse" to start this next week, and now I'm curious to see what he actually ends up doing with it.

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. It’s given me a lot to think about.

I think thinking about him as having a much younger emotional ability might be helpful. Sometimes when I’m not worn down I’m very good at empathising with him ‘I wish we could get that but we’ve spent the money, what would you do with it, let’s write it on your birthday list’ etc.

The pocket money thing is perhaps something to revisit. We always did it with a kids debit card which I think made it difficult to imagine. Maybe if I get a load of £ coins so he has a visible representation of the money. And to just let him completely waste it - this is something I find difficult because I know he’ll be disappointed when the moment has passed.

I find your post a little upsetting, I feel you’re viewing your child negatively (which we all do at times) but I can feel your sadness. Sadly if your child does have Autism they may not behave as a child their own age.

I would suggest starting the assessment process and reading up on Autism. Children with autism can be naughty, but often Autism has a huge impact on behaviour. My son often has poor behaviour but I’m very aware it’s often not his fault, he simply doesn’t think or process situations the same way as a child his age and his tolerance level is low.

‘The explosive child’ is a good book to start with, the first chapter is about supermarket shopping which can be overwhelming (may be some ear defenders).

I think you need to look at this a different way, I feel you’re being harsh on your child and yourself I would set some very clear boundaries and be consistent but accept your child may struggle with everyday activities and behave differently than you’d expect at times.

We started the assessment process for an autism assessment ages ago! We’ve been on the NHS list for 2 years now. I think we probably have another 18 months to go. We’re also on right to choose for ADHD assessment.

I have read so much over the years. We have the explosive child book which I can dig out again, have read lots of autism and parenting books, the autistic brain etc.

I am usually very good at knowing what he’ll cope with etc. Yesterday I didn’t do so well with my language to him and yes, I do get frustrated. I think I also get slightly embarrassed (I’m getting better at not caring) and overwhelmed by his behaviour and that he is unable to manage this when he’s such an intelligent boy in so many other ways.

He is a lovely boy and I feel bad that I don’t always see things through an autism lense. But I’m also struggling with that as he gets older he needs to learn how to behave in a way I can manage. I currently would never take him to a shop alone as I can’t be sure I have the strength to manage a meltdown.

For me I try to manage my asd son’s environment. So when he was four a supermarket shop would have been too much for him. Now he can manage it if it’s not too long and he’s on fairly good form. It may be that between the disregulation from school and the excitement of going to the other shop was him at full capacity so when you went the supermarket the second something wasn’t quite right he lost it.
He will have ups and downs , if he struggles with school you may see an improvement in the holidays but that’s because he’s finding his environment easier rather than losing his autistic traits.
I find spoon theory is a good way to understand it, if my son has 10 spoons he could potentially cope with something challenging, if he has 2 spoons he definitely won’t.
You can’t seperate the autism from the behaviour because he is autistic so his behaviour is linked to his autism. I don’t discipline meltdowns as they are a reaction to overwhelm. (Like a panic attack)I dodiscipline Rudeness, disobedience or destructive behaviour.

It’s hard as SEND Mum, I think especially as you describe having a bright autistic child as some times they can manage this and other times they can’t and figuring out what they can cope with is diffiuclt. Looking back I made my daughter do thing she tolerated rather than was OK with too much and now she is in autistic burn out. This isn’t a place you want your child to be, it a terrifying and lonely place for the child and parents. I was recluctant at first to encourage chewies and ear defenders (DD likes noise cancelling headphone as it doesn’t look as different) but I wish encouraged their use earlier. Classrooms are loud, bright, nosiy, smelly places and children have way fewer choices than an adult. Many austistic adults find their work places much easy to deal with than school.

Hey OP my son is almost 5 and diagnosed with ASD at 3. I also find it hard to find the balance of being accommodating letting the things that don't matter slide and having firm boundaries for the things that do but it's really hard. I'm sorry it's taking so long for the assessment as once you're through there should be more support - we have a psychologist that we see regularly for parent coaching and we try new strategies and we see an occupational therapist to help with the sensory issues. I don't take my son to toy shops very often because it's inevitable he has a meltdown because he wants 2 toys and I've said he can have 1. I find with most non ASD kids they will be disappointed but eventually come to accept that they are only having 1 thing. With DS we could spend an hour in the shop, he will have a meltdown, we end up leaving with nothing and he's kicking and screaming. But he doesn't learn from the experience. Each time we go again 9 times out of 10 it's the same thing. And that we find happens in general. He might be home and have a meltdown because the temperature of his dinner is not right, then he will become very angry and throw some toys, the toys get taken away but he's not bothered by the consequence, does not learn to not throw toys. It's really hard to manage. The best advice the psychologist gave was to keep track of melt downs, triggers, what happened before, during, after, time of day, look for patterns and try to avoid the triggers so don't take him to the toy shop if he can't handle it. Also as someone said before I find my son needs me calm to help him regulate so we avoid stressful situations.

I'd say with my son that he's really very bright and in that respect ahead of his peers but emotionally he's behind so I don't make comparisons.

Brilliant post. 100%

OP I can really appreciate how hard this must be for you, been there myself. A spiky profile in your child is extremely hard to manage as a parent, it will feel very confounding of your own expectations and experiences, and also is it too complex for most schools to look into deeply enough to be able to really help your child or inform you on what your child might need or might respond to best.

i hope for you that when you have assessments done they will really help your shed light on the situation. I do feel that assessments have been key for me in understanding my child, along with then once i have had the reports and gained some key words from that, seeking out and speaking to a lot of other parents with kids in the same position..I feel that until I had the benefit of a professional description of the strengths and challenges my DC have, I was trying to manage the situation without being able to view the full picture. I was making mistakes like anyone would just chucking ideas around and seeing what sticks

so I’d agree that:

-some things will be skills to practice
-some things will be sensory sensitivities, which means they will always be there and will be heightened in times of stress
-many of the behaviours from our kids that we as parents experience as challenging are heightened by our kids’ anxiety. So if anxiety can be reduced in as many areas of the child’s life as far as possible, by even small contributions (so this obviously includes school, family and friend etc) then this will help reduce overall anxiety.
-reducing anxiety may not be achieved in ways you might expect. For example it could involve involving your kid in lots of exercise, or helping your kid to find the specific types of sensory feedback that works for them.
-your own parenting models and expectations you grew up with might not be reliable guides at all even though as stressed parents that’s usually all we have to learn on when we need to come up with a response and they are a core part of our idea of ourselves as parents.

And all of this is definitely a marathon not a sprint. ‘Put your own other mask on first so you can help others’ is said for a reason. Seek support for you, this is hard. Be kind to yourself.

I would strongly recommend getting him a diagnosis.

DC2 got one, but sadly not until they were a young adult. Post diagnosis, I found it much easier to understand DC2's reactions and behaviour and have therefore been able to 'handle' them better.

I don't think that you need to separate out behaviours that stem from Autism/other behaviours. I think it's more important to think about what they're current abilities are and what is more challenging. My DS12 has Autism, ADHD and learning disability and I get it 'wrong' very often - thinking that an outing/activity will be manageable. To be honest we mostly avoid going to shops - way too stressful. Also with them just returning to school my two are just exhausted and even though they have settled back well and DD6 is NT I am really pacing us outside of school.

Then you’re doing all the right things, everyday we learn something new and can’t be expected to deal with every situation perfectly. It’s hard, exhausting and isolating. Be kind to yourself. Try and find some support but I know that’s hard. I’ll rarely take my son out on my own and I've learnt to ignore others reactions but somedays I will give a death stare or make a very loud comment back. It makes me feel better.

As for the assessment, it’s a tricky one because on one hand it helps to know for sure but then there’s no real support or services even with a diagnosis, but it does add weight when you need to fight for your son.