The other Lucy died yesterday

[GreyPearlSatin]

Lucia de Berk died yesterday at age 63. Her case is eerily similar to that of Lucy Letby. https://shorty-news.com/news/lucia-de-berk-former-nurse-dies-at-63-de-telegraaf-obituary/

She wrote a book about her ordeal. I've had it for years, but had yet to read it. I have started this morning and it's harrowing to read her ordeal and how the prisons and jails are still set up to mentally break people, and they do, all the time.

Her case is widely regarded as one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in Dutch history. This poor woman went through hell and she lost her health (she had a stroke in prison, which was never adequately treated) and 16 years of her life.

Sadly, I wasn't able to find an English addition of her book, but I hope that, in time, there will be a translation, giving more people the opportunity to read it.

Are you saying you think Lucy Letby is not guilty?

I have read about Lucia’s case. So so tragic and sad. I would much rather 10 guilty people walk free than one innocent be thrown in prison.

Would you feel exactly like this if it was you or your child that was the victim of a serious crime?

So 10 murderers and rapists walking the streets. People who have done heinous crimes to kids walking the streets.
Bloody hell.

Yes

Urrrgghh

But none of these children were victims of a crime. Medicine can't do everything, and in the case of Lucia, serious medical mistakes were made that cost at least one boy his life. But these mistakes were made by doctors, not nurses. She was simply a scapegoat and it looks like Letby has met that same fate.

To clarify, I don't believe either women was ever guilty of "murder". In fact, I do not believe these were murder. I do believe that there were medical mistakes made by doctors in some of the cases, but that still does not qualify as murder. I am inclined to side with expert analyses in these cases, rather than an (online) witch-hunt.

And no amount of weird (animal?) noises, eye-rolling or calling me an idiot will make me change my mind.

Why do you think that?
Have you read all the evidence, heard all the witness statements, and forensically examined it all?.
I don't know if she is guilty or not because I haven't seen all the evidence. But a jury convicted her after deliberating for a long time did find her guilty . And she had an appeal denied.

I think jury trials are a topic worthy of its own discussion. I would not feel comfortable to have my fate decided by laymen. I would want medical experts and judges to decide if I am guilty of a crime or not. However, in case of Lucia this did not help her. She was, however, completely exonerated 16 years later.

Many of the facts, allegations and prosecution mirrored that of Letby's. Have I read it all? No. I have read the opinions of the global expert panel and I don't see how they can all be wrong.

Yes. Absolutely. I would much prefer that than living in fear that I might be sent to prison for a crime I did not commit.

If there were any murders, you would have thought pathology would have flagged them up.

Just the fear that statistically you would then be more likely to be murdered or raped.

🙄

Lucy Letby case reminds me of the 6 Bulgarian medics wrongfully accused of intentionally infecting over 400 children with hiv in Libiya. They were sentenced to death and were tortured in prison and were made to write false statements. Many believed they were used as a scapegoat to a bigger health issue in the country. They were pardoned years later and it became clear that many of the children were infected before the medics arrived in the country and the hospital.

An occasional innocent person locked up is much better than several guilty walking free! As a country we already allow people who commit horrible violent and sexual crimes to walk free after no or little time. For example Joseph McCann I think should’ve been locked up with key thrown away long before he got a lengthy sentence.
I do believe innocent people can and are convicted, but I don’t think Lucy Letby is one of them.

I had never heard of this case - the similarities are chilling.

This is why I would be awful on a jury. I would be so terrified of putting an innocent person in prison that any tiny tiny doubt (isn’t there always) would stop me convicting.

Well, that is how it is supposed to work! But if you watch the Jury you see that a few strong personalities can have a massive impact on whether others think there is doubt.

You wouldn't be awful on a jury then. That's the whole point. If you have any doubt that they're guilty, you find them not guilty.

I've read most of the trial evidence, as well as all the statistical and medical criticism of the trial, & I think Lucy Letby is innocent. Most of my medical colleagues agree with me. A good place to start if you're new to the case is the video of the Shoo Lee press conference.

Not for the innocent person. Would you still be OK with those odds if the innocent person was your child?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_ratio

It's a fairly well established idea. You are welcome to disagree (and I think if I wanted to play devil's advocate I could make some solid arguments against it especially with crimes with a high victim to perpetrator ratio like rape), but the other posters isn't being some crayzee out there person for saying that. It's a well established idea, and well established for good reasons.

I am sorry people. I totally messed up the timeline. Lucia was convicted in 2004, although she was already in jail for nearly 2 years at that time and she was exonerated in 2010. So that is 8 years, not 16. Still, it's an awful long time to be locked up for nothing.

She is also a phenomenal writer. It's a pity she only wrote one book. But I do understand it. She wanted a quiet life after she was released and I am sure that if she had written more books she would have had even more media attention.

I think the book she did write was helpful to give an understanding what a life behind bars is like. She was never officially tortured, although they did keep her in solitary confinement for the maximum two weeks, despite there being no suicide risk whatsoever. The cell was really cold. She was not allowed to wear underwear, only a thin pair of shorts and a thin shirt. She had a thin blanket and the whole time she had a fan blowing cold air over the mattress that that fastened to the the floor. There was nothing else in the cell. They even took her roll of toilet paper away, because she had used it to make slippers to keep her feet a little warmer.

She was also often denied the opportunity to call her lawyer, to receive visits from her family, to take a shower, etc. Small indignities that really added up to her feeling horrible. They also interrogated her for hours every day, weeks on end. They often told her she was stupid for listening to her lawyer when she consistently refused to answer questions.

She wrote in the introduction that she felt that the notes she took while in jail, were written in a bitter tone. In my view, she had every reason to feel bitter. She was in an awful situation and many of the guards deliberately made her situation worse.

I agree.

People said that about the Guildford 4, the Birmingham 6, Sally Clarke, Tripti Patel, etc. All later exonerated.

I've said on here before I don't know if Lucy Letby is guilty or innocent but I do think her conviction is unsafe.