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Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 12:54

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation.

Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case,

Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left):
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

Page 38 | Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind? | Mumsnet

I’ve been sensing a shift in opinions on the Lucy Letby case and I’m interested in hearing from people who have changed their mind either way. Did y...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 07:14

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 23:39

“I was genuinely trying to! Just to clear things up-it's an emotive case and I think it's natural for posters to get worked up occasionally. If I do that it's not because I'm angry at anyone or trying to make things personal. But I am sorry if my tone comes across that way at times”

Tone completely gets lost in text so I understand. It’s a highly emotive case, as you say, with a lot of strong feelings bouncing around. You know that I don’t agree with you on this case, but I’m totally happy to engage with you (or anyone else who is pro verdict) if you want to come back to the conversation tomorrow or whenever, you're welcome.

“you and most others have been genuinely respectful and I think we've had some good discussions and I really appreciate that.”

Thanks for that! Given we don’t agree on much I do appreciate it. It’s always good to consider other views on a topic, even if we don’t ultimately agree 🙂

Appreciate that. I get now we are coming from a completely different angle re the case-I don't just mean guilt vs innocence but the justice system etc. vs a more true crime discussion on LL herself. Probably never going to go well in a thread-although we didn't do bad considering!

As you know I think I've said all I can on the case for now anyway re LL as a person. People aren't interested in that even though the case is about HER but there you go! Am still interested in others' thoughts so I'll probably keep up with the thread.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 07:53

Moonlightdust · 12/08/2025 23:16

I truly believed the judge made the right decision when she was served her sentence. However after so many experts raised concerns about diagnosis discrepancies, I began to question the certainty of her conviction.

At the time of the deaths, I’m not sure they were ruled as suspicious so I don’t know how accurate the post mortems were (whether they fully examined all possible causes).

However, just hearing all the overall evidence about her demeanour, how she initially failed her nurse assessment and then went on to make an error administering too much insulin to a patient in her first role, reading all her messages (bordering upon obsession) to members of staff, her reactions to the deaths, obsessively searching for the parents on Facebook (particularly on certain dates) etc, I just get the sense that something isn’t right. The way she reacted in her police interview was off - I watch a lot of crime investigations of police interviews (!) so am quite interested in psychology and body language. It’s just a gut instinct I have that tells me she’s not innocent despite not wanting to believe someone could be capable of such a heinous act.

I truly hope she is guilty otherwise what an awful situation for not only her but those poor parents and families of the babies who have already been through a horrific ordeal and at least have some small comfort that justice has been served.

Edited

At the time of the deaths, I’m not sure they were ruled as suspicious so I don’t know how accurate the post mortems were”

No, the deaths were not thought to be suspicious at the time. Some of them, like Baby O, should have been referred to the coroner by the consultants, but were not. Not even when they were talking to each other about these deaths being possible murders. That, in retrospect is suspicious imo, and the coroner questioned this at Thirlwall, but it’s not suspicious as regards Letby. It’s the consultant’s ethical (and I believe legal) duty to inform the coroner of suspicious deaths.

Why did the consultants not do this? Was their priority making sure that they themselves didn’t come under fire? I can’t think of any other reason for not going to the coroner (or the police or anyone of the other avenues that were open to them) if they suspected a baby killer was stalking the wards. They waited over a year before going to the police. Why? I’d like to know.

There is no good reason to think that the post mortems were inaccurate. Those original pathologists are the only people to have seen or examined the actual babies - the pathologist at trial made his report based on notes and Dr Evans’s report. None of the expert witnesses saw or examined the babies at all. Unless the og pathologists were in cahoots with Letby it’s hard to see how they coincidentally missed signs of murder so obvious that Dewi Evans was able to diagnose it “within ten minutes over a coffee” as he himself claims.

I think it’s far more likely that the original pathologists were correct and that Evans is a crank.

just hearing all the overall evidence about her demeanour, how she initially failed her nurse assessment”

First of all, demeanour etc is nothing if there were no murders in the first place, which now looks to be the case. it’s also not “evidence”.

Be careful you’re not taking prosecution allegations in court (which I promise you could easily misrepresent any one of us as unhinged) and/or lurid tabloid content to judge her “demeanour”.

Yes she failed a nursing placement once, but have you never failed anything? If so you’re an exception. Not everyone gels and student nurses often fail nursing placements. She passed the next time.

Be careful also of condemnatory statements made in retrospect, years after someone has been thoroughly monstered in the press and branded a child serial killer.

Nicola Lightfoot did not write “cold” in the original placement assessment at the time.
That description came years later, when she gave evidence to the Thirlwall Inquiry (2024) about her recollection of Letby’s behaviour during that failed student placement.

When she gave evidence to Thirlwall, she described Letby using significantly more emotive language. She then said Letby was “cold,” etc.

At the time of the assessment (circa 2011), her official feedback was that Letby had failed to meet some of the required competencies for a children’s nurse, particularly around communication and interaction with patients and families. But the specific word “cold” appears to be retrospective language she used in 2024 to sum up the impression she had formed in retrospect, which again is filtered through the context of Letby as a confirmed child killer.

For me I’m much more struck by how little they could dredge up to smear Letby with. I guarantee you they could find more dirt on me if they dug into every corner of my life since birth, which they did for her. Stupid things like fights with ex boyfriend’s, disagreements with managers, the neighbour I had a horrendous time with when I first lived alone, god knows what. Unless one is extremely angelic and has lived a perfect life, the same is probably true of most of us.

reading all her messages (bordering upon obsession) to members of staff, her reactions to the deaths,….I just get the sense that something isn’t right.”

Thats likely because all of these things have been framed as weird by prosecution allegations in court, tabloid newspapers, a daily Mail podcast - which has been revealed to have been taking payments from Cheshire police, etc. I don’t know where you got this from exactly, but it’s unlikely that you heard about these things from any other source than the above.

If someone dug into every nook and cranny of your life, or mine, determined to make you look strange in a context where you’ve been accused of child murder, I guarantee you they would find at least as much if not more. I again think in that context Letby is totally unremarkable. Is that really the worst they could dig up?

“obsessively searching for the parents on Facebook (particularly on certain dates) etc,”

She didn’t “obsessively search” the parents on Facebook. She made in total 31 searches for parents out of 2,381 total searches. She didn’t search for all of the parents. The other searches were for people she knew, people she met at salsa class etc.

Is it perfectly correct for a nurse to do this in terms of GDPR etc? No. Can I imagine doing it if I’d spent a long time with a family whose baby had eventually died? Yes. It’s human to wonder how they’re getting on.

Bear in mind that many of the parents liked her at the time. One set wanted her to be godmother! She’s only been framed as a weirdo creep in retrospect and if I was told my baby was murdered by someone, I am certain my every memory of them would change colour entirely.

Which dates do you find troubling? If it’s the Christmas Day search, she was on shift that day and looked them up in a quiet moment. She wasn’t sitting curled up by the fire watching Its a Wonderful Life with her parents or something.

The way she reacted in her police interview was off - I watch a lot of crime investigations of police interviews (!) so am quite interested in psychology and body language.”

I don’t agree at all! I feel that she looked as normal as one can in the context. Intimidated but holding it together.

No offence, but I always flinch a bit when people say they are into true crime and are judging Letby in that context, which comes with a particular filter. True crime content doesn’t train you for anything except the expectation that you’ll find a killer around every corner. If you watch a lot of crime investigations you’re watching a lot of content that centres on a guilty person. You’re used to framing the interviewee as guilty.

What exactly stuck out to you and why? Is this really not how a normal person might behave? I think you’re reading a lot into nothing there.

I truly hope she is guilty otherwise what an awful situation for not only her but those poor parents and families of the babies who have already been through a horrific ordeal and at least have some small comfort that justice has been served.”

Look, I know your heart is in the right place here, but just think about that for a moment - you say you’d rather that these people’s babies had been murdered?

Don’t you think it will be far better, if still very tragic, if it turns out that they hadn’t been murdered?

When the police knocked on their doors years after their babies died to tell them that Lucy Letby murdered their baby, they had already buried their beloved child. Grieved. Some thankfully had another child or children now. They may still have been healing, grieving, but life was moving on. That’s when the nightmare began in earnest.

If it turns out there were no murders in the first place, which now looks to be the case based on the extremely flimsy medical evidence, that should never have happened.

Again, as I say frequently to others, literally nothing matters if there were no murders. The rest is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Not one shred of it is evidence of murder. The medical evidence is all that matters.

OP posts:
Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 08:02

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 07:53

At the time of the deaths, I’m not sure they were ruled as suspicious so I don’t know how accurate the post mortems were”

No, the deaths were not thought to be suspicious at the time. Some of them, like Baby O, should have been referred to the coroner by the consultants, but were not. Not even when they were talking to each other about these deaths being possible murders. That, in retrospect is suspicious imo, and the coroner questioned this at Thirlwall, but it’s not suspicious as regards Letby. It’s the consultant’s ethical (and I believe legal) duty to inform the coroner of suspicious deaths.

Why did the consultants not do this? Was their priority making sure that they themselves didn’t come under fire? I can’t think of any other reason for not going to the coroner (or the police or anyone of the other avenues that were open to them) if they suspected a baby killer was stalking the wards. They waited over a year before going to the police. Why? I’d like to know.

There is no good reason to think that the post mortems were inaccurate. Those original pathologists are the only people to have seen or examined the actual babies - the pathologist at trial made his report based on notes and Dr Evans’s report. None of the expert witnesses saw or examined the babies at all. Unless the og pathologists were in cahoots with Letby it’s hard to see how they coincidentally missed signs of murder so obvious that Dewi Evans was able to diagnose it “within ten minutes over a coffee” as he himself claims.

I think it’s far more likely that the original pathologists were correct and that Evans is a crank.

just hearing all the overall evidence about her demeanour, how she initially failed her nurse assessment”

First of all, demeanour etc is nothing if there were no murders in the first place, which now looks to be the case. it’s also not “evidence”.

Be careful you’re not taking prosecution allegations in court (which I promise you could easily misrepresent any one of us as unhinged) and/or lurid tabloid content to judge her “demeanour”.

Yes she failed a nursing placement once, but have you never failed anything? If so you’re an exception. Not everyone gels and student nurses often fail nursing placements. She passed the next time.

Be careful also of condemnatory statements made in retrospect, years after someone has been thoroughly monstered in the press and branded a child serial killer.

Nicola Lightfoot did not write “cold” in the original placement assessment at the time.
That description came years later, when she gave evidence to the Thirlwall Inquiry (2024) about her recollection of Letby’s behaviour during that failed student placement.

When she gave evidence to Thirlwall, she described Letby using significantly more emotive language. She then said Letby was “cold,” etc.

At the time of the assessment (circa 2011), her official feedback was that Letby had failed to meet some of the required competencies for a children’s nurse, particularly around communication and interaction with patients and families. But the specific word “cold” appears to be retrospective language she used in 2024 to sum up the impression she had formed in retrospect, which again is filtered through the context of Letby as a confirmed child killer.

For me I’m much more struck by how little they could dredge up to smear Letby with. I guarantee you they could find more dirt on me if they dug into every corner of my life since birth, which they did for her. Stupid things like fights with ex boyfriend’s, disagreements with managers, the neighbour I had a horrendous time with when I first lived alone, god knows what. Unless one is extremely angelic and has lived a perfect life, the same is probably true of most of us.

reading all her messages (bordering upon obsession) to members of staff, her reactions to the deaths,….I just get the sense that something isn’t right.”

Thats likely because all of these things have been framed as weird by prosecution allegations in court, tabloid newspapers, a daily Mail podcast - which has been revealed to have been taking payments from Cheshire police, etc. I don’t know where you got this from exactly, but it’s unlikely that you heard about these things from any other source than the above.

If someone dug into every nook and cranny of your life, or mine, determined to make you look strange in a context where you’ve been accused of child murder, I guarantee you they would find at least as much if not more. I again think in that context Letby is totally unremarkable. Is that really the worst they could dig up?

“obsessively searching for the parents on Facebook (particularly on certain dates) etc,”

She didn’t “obsessively search” the parents on Facebook. She made in total 31 searches for parents out of 2,381 total searches. She didn’t search for all of the parents. The other searches were for people she knew, people she met at salsa class etc.

Is it perfectly correct for a nurse to do this in terms of GDPR etc? No. Can I imagine doing it if I’d spent a long time with a family whose baby had eventually died? Yes. It’s human to wonder how they’re getting on.

Bear in mind that many of the parents liked her at the time. One set wanted her to be godmother! She’s only been framed as a weirdo creep in retrospect and if I was told my baby was murdered by someone, I am certain my every memory of them would change colour entirely.

Which dates do you find troubling? If it’s the Christmas Day search, she was on shift that day and looked them up in a quiet moment. She wasn’t sitting curled up by the fire watching Its a Wonderful Life with her parents or something.

The way she reacted in her police interview was off - I watch a lot of crime investigations of police interviews (!) so am quite interested in psychology and body language.”

I don’t agree at all! I feel that she looked as normal as one can in the context. Intimidated but holding it together.

No offence, but I always flinch a bit when people say they are into true crime and are judging Letby in that context, which comes with a particular filter. True crime content doesn’t train you for anything except the expectation that you’ll find a killer around every corner. If you watch a lot of crime investigations you’re watching a lot of content that centres on a guilty person. You’re used to framing the interviewee as guilty.

What exactly stuck out to you and why? Is this really not how a normal person might behave? I think you’re reading a lot into nothing there.

I truly hope she is guilty otherwise what an awful situation for not only her but those poor parents and families of the babies who have already been through a horrific ordeal and at least have some small comfort that justice has been served.”

Look, I know your heart is in the right place here, but just think about that for a moment - you say you’d rather that these people’s babies had been murdered?

Don’t you think it will be far better, if still very tragic, if it turns out that they hadn’t been murdered?

When the police knocked on their doors years after their babies died to tell them that Lucy Letby murdered their baby, they had already buried their beloved child. Grieved. Some thankfully had another child or children now. They may still have been healing, grieving, but life was moving on. That’s when the nightmare began in earnest.

If it turns out there were no murders in the first place, which now looks to be the case based on the extremely flimsy medical evidence, that should never have happened.

Again, as I say frequently to others, literally nothing matters if there were no murders. The rest is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Not one shred of it is evidence of murder. The medical evidence is all that matters.

‘She’s only been painted as a wierdo creep in retrospect’

Yes. I’d agree. The incident I referenced a couple of post of mine ago of someone I witnessed being accused of something - it was both horrifying and fascinating to watch as people who had known this person for some time begin to read into previous behaviour and come up with completely different evaluations of that behaviour - polar opposite.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:03

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 06:57

The one where (must be close to 45ish that we know of) medical professionals and scientists speak out to members of the uk and international press outlets, consistently, over several years, all saying the same thing ‘something is very wrong here’

The only conspiracy I’ve seen on here this far is a self proclaimed psychiatrist diagnosing frok their armchair

Edited

Yes. This is kind of what I was getting at.

“Conspiracy theorist” used to be used quite successfully to shut anyone with doubts up. But now that there are so many disparate credible experts speaking up the hunter has become the hunted.

It’s not even slightly reasonable to call senior directors and professors etc at some of the world’s top research hospitals from Tokyo to Sweden to Canada “conspiracy theorists”. A senior neonatologist from the Karolinska Institute- which is the home of the Nobel prize for science and medicine - is not a “conspiracy theorist”.

These people and many, many, others, have not each individually lost their minds and decided to tank solid gold reputations and lucrative carers at the very top of their game to dishonestly shill for a serial killer nurse in Chester.

Those who believe that this is what’s going on are the real conspiracy theorists here.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:05

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 08:02

‘She’s only been painted as a wierdo creep in retrospect’

Yes. I’d agree. The incident I referenced a couple of post of mine ago of someone I witnessed being accused of something - it was both horrifying and fascinating to watch as people who had known this person for some time begin to read into previous behaviour and come up with completely different evaluations of that behaviour - polar opposite.

100% and I bet if the person involved was accused of being a baby killer the anecdotes would take on another colour entirely.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:06

Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 07:14

Appreciate that. I get now we are coming from a completely different angle re the case-I don't just mean guilt vs innocence but the justice system etc. vs a more true crime discussion on LL herself. Probably never going to go well in a thread-although we didn't do bad considering!

As you know I think I've said all I can on the case for now anyway re LL as a person. People aren't interested in that even though the case is about HER but there you go! Am still interested in others' thoughts so I'll probably keep up with the thread.

“we didn't do bad considering!” definitely! 😅 glad you’re sticking around anyway.

OP posts:
Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 08:07

An article from a parents perspective finding Letby the extreme opposite of ‘cold’

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2024-09-18/mother-of-twins-targeted-by-letby-carries-the-sadness-of-other-families

I think it’s fair to say that a lot of these reflections on Letby being ‘strange’ could be retrospection through a now very distorted lens.

Mischance · 13/08/2025 08:18

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 22:21

1 - Public and media scrutiny are a cornerstone of British justice, providing a check on the justice system as crucial in a democracy as jury trials.

2 - There is no “trial by media”. All anyone wants is for the courts to review the evidence which plainly needs to happen.

3 - No high profile MoJ has ever been corrected without serious public and media pressure. History shows us that the courts, unfortunately, cannot be trusted to mark their own homework.

I hear that. But if it went to appeal and a retrial is ordered where would you find an impartial jury? Maybe someone with more legal knowledge than I can explain how this works.

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 08:23

Mischance · 13/08/2025 08:18

I hear that. But if it went to appeal and a retrial is ordered where would you find an impartial jury? Maybe someone with more legal knowledge than I can explain how this works.

Well exactly, but it is done.

Convictions can also be quashed in certain circumstances.

I see the egregious 40% tube dislodgement claim is making the rounds across the outlets - that’s one example of piss poor reporting that would most certainly be a problem in a retrial.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:33

Insanityisnotastrategy · 12/08/2025 23:13

Little known fact - in 2005 Dr Jayaram actually signed a letter in support of Roy Meadow when he was being struck off after the horrendous Sally Clark case.

That says a lot about him.

I think it really, really, does. Like wtf? The letter praised Meadow as a “pioneer in the field of child protection” and argued that removing him would discourage clinicians from speaking out about possible child abuse.” 😭 seriously?!

But there’s more! In 2007; Drs. Ravi Jayaram, John Gibbs, and Elizabeth Newby (Dr Y) - each of whom later testified in the Lucy Letby trial - signed another letter in support of Meadow, which was published in the journal Pediatrics.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51385394UnitedKingdomGeneralMedicalCouncilFailsChildProtection

So he didn’t do this once, but twice, and so did another two of the drs.

But wait, there’s more! In 2007 Dr John Gibbs, one of the consultants who “brought Lucy Letby to justice” signed yet another letter - I’ll link it below - this time in support of David Southall who, after Sally Clark was released, quite madly said he believed Sally Clark’s husband, Steve Clark, had murdered the two children!

He said this based on watching police interview tapes of Mr Clark, not from direct clinical involvement. (Heads up for the true crime fans amongst us, be careful of diagnosis from a distance) The General Medical Council (GMC) later ruled that these public accusations, without direct evidence, were serious professional misconduct.

And Dr John Gibbs defended this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/dec/05/childprotection.mainsection

In 2007, the GMC struck Southall off the medical register for serious professional misconduct in separate cases involving allegations of fabricated or induced illness. He was found to have wrongly accused several parents of harming or killing their children, often on minimal or circumstantial evidence. His pattern of behaviour, like Meadow’s, became emblematic of what critics called a “witch-hunt” culture in child protection medicine at the time.

Again, John Gibbs defended Southall.

And he did it again!

In 2009, John Gibbs signed yet another open letter in support of Roy Meadow and David Southall, following the widespread condemnation of both men's egregious misconduct in the case of Sally Clarke.

Gibbs was identified in that letter as a member of the advocacy group
‘Professionals Against Child Abuse’.

For those of you who don’t know, Roy Meadow and David Southall were instrumental in securing the horrendous Miscarriage of Justice against Sally Clark and several other mothers imprisoned for having murdered several of their own children. These flights of ego and fancy utterly destroyed several entire families. These doctors used fantastical, flimsy, and/or completely incorrect evidence in the investigations/trials and they doubled down after the 💩 hit the fan.

Does this sound familiar? It should. Does it give you pause? It should.

Theres a podcast about bad stats used to wrongly convict mothers (but never fathers) can’t remember the name but I’ll dig it out if anyone is interested.

https://adc.bmj.com/content/94/5/329

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:44

Mischance · 13/08/2025 08:18

I hear that. But if it went to appeal and a retrial is ordered where would you find an impartial jury? Maybe someone with more legal knowledge than I can explain how this works.

If we are to be honest, the chance of an impartial jury was gone before the first trial and certainly by the second. An equally large problem would be the fact that the prosecution are extremely unlikely to be able to get anyone to be an expert witness and defend Evans’s evidence. Even if they somehow can, they’ll be heavily outweighed by the calibre and experience of the defence expert witnesses.

If the evidence used to convict is as worthless as it appears now to be, then there may not be a retrial. It’ll either go to appeal or it’ll be quashed like Sally Clark’s case. I’d say that’s more likely. A retrial is extremely unlikely. It’ll either would be costly, hard on the parents, embarrassing for the judiciary, and futile in this new context.

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 13/08/2025 09:01

Moonlightdust · 12/08/2025 23:16

I truly believed the judge made the right decision when she was served her sentence. However after so many experts raised concerns about diagnosis discrepancies, I began to question the certainty of her conviction.

At the time of the deaths, I’m not sure they were ruled as suspicious so I don’t know how accurate the post mortems were (whether they fully examined all possible causes).

However, just hearing all the overall evidence about her demeanour, how she initially failed her nurse assessment and then went on to make an error administering too much insulin to a patient in her first role, reading all her messages (bordering upon obsession) to members of staff, her reactions to the deaths, obsessively searching for the parents on Facebook (particularly on certain dates) etc, I just get the sense that something isn’t right. The way she reacted in her police interview was off - I watch a lot of crime investigations of police interviews (!) so am quite interested in psychology and body language. It’s just a gut instinct I have that tells me she’s not innocent despite not wanting to believe someone could be capable of such a heinous act.

I truly hope she is guilty otherwise what an awful situation for not only her but those poor parents and families of the babies who have already been through a horrific ordeal and at least have some small comfort that justice has been served.

Edited

I am always amazed at these responses.
How should she have behaved?
I doubt that there is a fixed pattern of behaviour for these situations, and given the medication that she was on these could be highly skewed.

And in these situations we really need to have more than a "gut" feeling.

EdithBond · 13/08/2025 09:13

@Kittybythelighthouse You may already be aware Dewi Evans joined Roy Meadow and David Southall (among others) in signing a letter to GMC complaining about frivolous and vexatious complaints from accused mothers (19 Jan 2002).

This was days before the Royal Statistical Society wrote to the Lord Chancellor about misuse of statistics in Sally Clark's murder trial (23 Jan 2002).

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1122077/

Mirabai · 13/08/2025 09:15

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:44

If we are to be honest, the chance of an impartial jury was gone before the first trial and certainly by the second. An equally large problem would be the fact that the prosecution are extremely unlikely to be able to get anyone to be an expert witness and defend Evans’s evidence. Even if they somehow can, they’ll be heavily outweighed by the calibre and experience of the defence expert witnesses.

If the evidence used to convict is as worthless as it appears now to be, then there may not be a retrial. It’ll either go to appeal or it’ll be quashed like Sally Clark’s case. I’d say that’s more likely. A retrial is extremely unlikely. It’ll either would be costly, hard on the parents, embarrassing for the judiciary, and futile in this new context.

There is also the aspect that there isn’t really any evidence to re-try. There never was evidence of murder in any of the cases, nor anything to link the deaths to LL in particular.

You could re-examine the insulin cases, but the problem is a. The medical data is quite straightforward in what went wrong with Baby E in particular. b. There are far more plausible explanations for randomly high insulin readings than attempted murder to make it impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt; c. There is no evidence at all of any tampering/intentional harm.

Then you have the thorny issue of who would testify for the prosecution. Perhaps Dewi would be keen, but would the prosecution want him? Bohin has been under GMC investigation following complaints from 8 families, don’t know the outcome of that. Hindmarsh has relinquished his GMC registration following conditions added it. They’re also massively outgunned but the sheer calibre of the prosecution experts.

Prof Neena Modi made the point that while her team looked at all the original medical records; the prosecution experts only saw excepts sent by Evans. If any of those experts saw the full notes would they be so keen or indeed so sure second time round?

SquishedMallow · 13/08/2025 09:17

FrippEnos · 13/08/2025 09:01

I am always amazed at these responses.
How should she have behaved?
I doubt that there is a fixed pattern of behaviour for these situations, and given the medication that she was on these could be highly skewed.

And in these situations we really need to have more than a "gut" feeling.

That's the thing. LL has already had a long time period of being off work, knowing the accusations against her and had already had police involvement surrounding it. So being arrested would have come as no "bolt from the blue" unfortunately. She would have also been heavily medicated on anti depressants etc and was already seeing a counsellor/therapist. So knee jerk shock and horror would have long since passed. I wouldn't imagine she was pretty much numb.

Plus, imagine you've been accused and on trial for henious crimes that you know you didn't commit , but everyone is telling you that you did and everyone believes you did and that's a catalogue of engineered evidence to "prove" it. Imagine how utterly despairing and hopeless you must feel. Most of us can't even imagine how that must feel. In the end, after months and years you must lose hope and fight and resign yourself to the fate that coming over you like a tsunami.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 09:25

Mirabai · 13/08/2025 09:15

There is also the aspect that there isn’t really any evidence to re-try. There never was evidence of murder in any of the cases, nor anything to link the deaths to LL in particular.

You could re-examine the insulin cases, but the problem is a. The medical data is quite straightforward in what went wrong with Baby E in particular. b. There are far more plausible explanations for randomly high insulin readings than attempted murder to make it impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt; c. There is no evidence at all of any tampering/intentional harm.

Then you have the thorny issue of who would testify for the prosecution. Perhaps Dewi would be keen, but would the prosecution want him? Bohin has been under GMC investigation following complaints from 8 families, don’t know the outcome of that. Hindmarsh has relinquished his GMC registration following conditions added it. They’re also massively outgunned but the sheer calibre of the prosecution experts.

Prof Neena Modi made the point that while her team looked at all the original medical records; the prosecution experts only saw excepts sent by Evans. If any of those experts saw the full notes would they be so keen or indeed so sure second time round?

Exactly. The prosecution aren’t going to find experts willing to defend Evans evidence (and it was always his evidence). Even if they did it would be like a pub five-a-side team vs the Premier League.

I think it’s clear that the prosecution experts have all run for cover already. Not a squeak has been heard from any of them, except for Evans, since serious doubts started pouring in post reporting ban.

Note that Sandie Bohin, who appeared in the first Letby Panorama, was in this one only in those archive clips. She wasn’t newly interviewed. I’m willing to bet that’s because she didn’t want to be.

OP posts:
Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 09:27

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 08:33

I think it really, really, does. Like wtf? The letter praised Meadow as a “pioneer in the field of child protection” and argued that removing him would discourage clinicians from speaking out about possible child abuse.” 😭 seriously?!

But there’s more! In 2007; Drs. Ravi Jayaram, John Gibbs, and Elizabeth Newby (Dr Y) - each of whom later testified in the Lucy Letby trial - signed another letter in support of Meadow, which was published in the journal Pediatrics.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51385394UnitedKingdomGeneralMedicalCouncilFailsChildProtection

So he didn’t do this once, but twice, and so did another two of the drs.

But wait, there’s more! In 2007 Dr John Gibbs, one of the consultants who “brought Lucy Letby to justice” signed yet another letter - I’ll link it below - this time in support of David Southall who, after Sally Clark was released, quite madly said he believed Sally Clark’s husband, Steve Clark, had murdered the two children!

He said this based on watching police interview tapes of Mr Clark, not from direct clinical involvement. (Heads up for the true crime fans amongst us, be careful of diagnosis from a distance) The General Medical Council (GMC) later ruled that these public accusations, without direct evidence, were serious professional misconduct.

And Dr John Gibbs defended this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/dec/05/childprotection.mainsection

In 2007, the GMC struck Southall off the medical register for serious professional misconduct in separate cases involving allegations of fabricated or induced illness. He was found to have wrongly accused several parents of harming or killing their children, often on minimal or circumstantial evidence. His pattern of behaviour, like Meadow’s, became emblematic of what critics called a “witch-hunt” culture in child protection medicine at the time.

Again, John Gibbs defended Southall.

And he did it again!

In 2009, John Gibbs signed yet another open letter in support of Roy Meadow and David Southall, following the widespread condemnation of both men's egregious misconduct in the case of Sally Clarke.

Gibbs was identified in that letter as a member of the advocacy group
‘Professionals Against Child Abuse’.

For those of you who don’t know, Roy Meadow and David Southall were instrumental in securing the horrendous Miscarriage of Justice against Sally Clark and several other mothers imprisoned for having murdered several of their own children. These flights of ego and fancy utterly destroyed several entire families. These doctors used fantastical, flimsy, and/or completely incorrect evidence in the investigations/trials and they doubled down after the 💩 hit the fan.

Does this sound familiar? It should. Does it give you pause? It should.

Theres a podcast about bad stats used to wrongly convict mothers (but never fathers) can’t remember the name but I’ll dig it out if anyone is interested.

Edited

And Evens himself had several cases where he was a witness accusing mothers of MSBP, on literally little to no evidence. Quite a few of them ended up turning out to completely baseless and the children really did have bonafide medical issues m
its quite incredible - given his speciality was endocrinology.

MSBP ashaunted yhe family courts for done time - now the new boogey man is PA - birthed by Richard Gardener who claimed that 90% of the cases he saw were mothers alienating dads and now we have a new set of ‘experts’ making a lot of money.

The court system allowing these ‘experts’ who aren’t actually experts have a lot to answer for.

He made a lot of money from those cases.

Pregnancyquestion · 13/08/2025 09:40

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 21:05

The thing about the insulin cases is that:

A: the test used is not reliable enough to even fire someone let alone convict as a murderer.

B: it has a 98% success rate. This means 2 tests in every hundred can be expected to fail. How many babies at COCH had immunoassays throughout the several years Letby worked there before the investigation? How many records did Brearey trawl through before he found these two cases which at the time raised no suspicion and were not sent forward for further testing? Moritz and Coffey never explored this because they don’t understand stats.

C: Letby wasn’t even there when both of these babies (who didn’t die btw) had these events. That’s why the prosecution had to engineer complex TPN bag poisoning plots, so they could be poisoned in her absence, but no evidence whatsoever was ever provided for this. No explanation was ever given for why there was no missing insulin. No explanation was given for how she would even have been able to poison the bags given the design.

So, let’s say the tests were accurate (doubtful) and there was exogenous insulin (extremely doubtful) why are we fingering Letby’s collar for it given she wasn’t even there?

The only reason why she was ever in the frame for these deaths is because of the other deaths, but the other deaths have all been shown not to be murder. The supposed murder methods were:

Air Embolism: disproven by the actual expert who wrote the paper the prosecution relied on as their only diagnostic evidence for air embolism.

Didn’t happen ✅

Overfilling the stomach with air or milk: this has been roundly shown to be nonsense by every neonatologist, neo natal nurse, and paediatrician that’s commented on the case publicly. The ‘incriminating’ x-ray in the Baby C case showing an over inflated stomach was taken before Letby had ever met the baby. It’s an invention never heard of throughout the history of medicine.

Didn’t happen: ✅

Tube Dislodgement: alleged in one case - the Baby K case - which relied solely on the evidence given by paediatrician Dr Ravi Jayaram who has since been shown to have perjured himself several times in regards to this case. Even the Court of Appeal said there are valid questions around his evidence.

Didn’t happen: ✅

Physical assault: Letby was convicted of murdering Baby O by punching him in the stomach. She was supposed to have done this while in a tiny room full of other people who were actively working on the baby. It has since been disproven by world leading experts that there are several other far more plausible explanations for the liver injury.

Didn’t happen: ✅

For many, the insulin cases are the only ones still troubling them. If you agree that the above murders most likely didn’t happen, why are we pinning the insulin cases on Letby (if they were exogenous, which is far from clear) given she wasn’t even there?

i actually did say if the insulin is the only evidence that isn’t as easily discounted then where’s the evidence that it was her, but does sound like there are holes to be poked in the insulin evidence too

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 09:43

SquishedMallow · 13/08/2025 09:17

That's the thing. LL has already had a long time period of being off work, knowing the accusations against her and had already had police involvement surrounding it. So being arrested would have come as no "bolt from the blue" unfortunately. She would have also been heavily medicated on anti depressants etc and was already seeing a counsellor/therapist. So knee jerk shock and horror would have long since passed. I wouldn't imagine she was pretty much numb.

Plus, imagine you've been accused and on trial for henious crimes that you know you didn't commit , but everyone is telling you that you did and everyone believes you did and that's a catalogue of engineered evidence to "prove" it. Imagine how utterly despairing and hopeless you must feel. Most of us can't even imagine how that must feel. In the end, after months and years you must lose hope and fight and resign yourself to the fate that coming over you like a tsunami.

Yes, she knew this day was likely coming. People expect an ott dramatic reaction, screaming and protesting, like bad acting on Eastenders, which is the trouble when true crime fans start to think they are behavioural experts. Her reaction to me looks very much like a woman going through a harrowing event. She does not look calm whatsoever. Her expression reminds me of my sister’s face at my father’s funeral more than anything. Exhausted and emotional, but internal.

“Imagine how utterly despairing and hopeless you must feel. Most of us can't even imagine how that must feel. In the end, after months and years you must lose hope and fight and resign yourself to the fate that coming over you like a tsunami.”

Exactly. The horror of it. I think the people who are genuinely interested in human behaviour at its extremes should consider examining the case from this angle. It’s far more interesting. Not just Letby, but the consultants, the police, everyone. How many murder cases are there? Far too many to count. Murder is almost an everyday event. A case like this is singular, a one-time event with its own unique interconnected behaviours.

Lucy Letby is, to me, the closest we will get to knowing what accused witches looked and felt like before they were executed. Judith Moritz even described her like this in her book “Letby looked like one of those plain, unmistakably English-looking women you see in depictions of old witch trials.”

If there were no murders, which now looks to be the case, that’s what we are witnessing now. A maelstrom of human behaviours that we arguably haven’t seen since the witch trials. I honestly thought we’d somehow evolved past that as a society. It’s been a real eye opener to me to see that we have not. There’s an education in that.

OP posts:
Pregnancyquestion · 13/08/2025 09:51

Firefly1987 · 12/08/2025 21:12

What on earth has getting drunk and having slightly wild life experiences got to do with murdering babies? Most people who let loose as a young person go on to be completely regular members of society? She was an only child so nobody got that close to her other than her parents. We simply don't know what is in her past, just like for years no one knew what she was doing to the babies. I don't expect an old friend to come out and go "oh I totally wasn't surprised to hear she was murdering babies, she always seemed like the type" because no one is ever going to suspect something like that. Besides, a lot of us think an incident happened at the hospital that maybe wasn't her fault and she enjoyed the buzz around it and that's what set it all off. It became addictive for her.

What sort of "motive" would ever justify or explain what she did? There is none, so unless you are going to say you just don't believe healthcare serial killers of babies exist you have to accept any motive is not going to make sense to us by default. It does to her though, that's the crux of it.

I don't think she's a psychopath I think she's a narcissist. And at their core they believe they are not good enough, and that would fit in perfectly with the note she wrote. I also believe she partly did it out of anger and revenge (narcissistic rage) when she realised she could harm the babies if someone "crossed" her. Plus hatred of seeing others happy. Narcs hate that others are happy because they're so empty. She's been shown to be highly manipulative, anyone who knows a narc well knows how other people get sucked in by them. She's manipulating you all still and I can't believe people on mumsnet who are supposed to be so switched on can't see her for what she is! But then this place is very default "women can do no wrong" so shouldn't be surprised.

She was an only child so nobody got that close to her other than her parents. We simply don't know what is in her past, just like for years no one knew what she was doing to the babies. I don't expect an old friend to come out and go "oh I totally wasn't surprised to hear she was murdering babies, she always seemed like the type" because no one is ever going to suspect something like that.

Anecdotally, I don’t think that’s true. I find on all the documentaries you watch or on the news there’s always plenty of people who are happy to come out and say something to make themselves seem like they knew something to get their 5mins of fame - ‘Oh I saw them look at a baby with rage in their eyes, I always knew they weren’t safe to be around babies.’ It always makes me roll my eyes.

The only ones doing that are the doctors, who if LL isn’t guilty, have some explaining to do

The fact that LL hasn’t got any of that could speak to her character as she is so supported by her friends. I remember after the trial when her friends were so adamant she was innocent I was a bit shocked as I hadn’t questioned her guilt

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 09:53

Pregnancyquestion · 13/08/2025 09:40

i actually did say if the insulin is the only evidence that isn’t as easily discounted then where’s the evidence that it was her, but does sound like there are holes to be poked in the insulin evidence too

There are definitely holes in the insulin evidence, but my major point is that she wouldn’t even have been charged with those events if she hadn’t already been charged with all the others. There’s nothing to link her to the insulin cases if the other cases didn’t happen. She wasn’t even there for the insulin events. So, if the others didn’t happen why do we think she, and not someone else, poisoned these babies? That’s my point really.

I don’t think the babies were poisoned with insulin and many high level experts agree with me. But let’s say they were, why aren’t we accusing one of the people who were actually there at the time instead of buying a convoluted TPN poisoning story to explain how someone who wasn’t there could have done it at a distance?

OP posts:
Newbutoldfather · 13/08/2025 09:54

@Kittybythelighthouse ,

Can you explain why you are so invested in this case? It would be interesting to understand. I think it is tremendously complicated and you need both a good knowledge of neonatal intensive care and statistics to fully understand it.

As a layperson, I probably do have a better grasp than most (mathematical science degree) but I still couldn’t be in any way sure one way or the other.

It is up to the defence to convince the jury that there is reasonably doubt and, certainly in the first trial, they failed to do that. This was always a trial based on layers of circumstantial evidence. Each individual piece of evidence was always subtle and debatable but, layered on top of each other, they convinced a jury.

For instance, you mentioned the insulin test being 98% accurate. This means the chance of two separate tests both being inaccurate is 2%x2%=0.0004 or 4/10,000 (unless the results were somehow correlated). Is 9996/10000 beyond reasonable doubt? I don’t know as I have never totally understood what that criterion means (and I don’t think anyone really does). But it is not just these two tests. There was a host of other evidence, all questionable. But the total picture?

The defence, of course, did (will again maybe) depend on challenging the minutiae of the evidence, as per the OJ Simpson defence.

As I said, up above, it is unlikely we will ever 100% know and an innocent woman in jail for life is a horrible prospect. But we don’t have any better mechanism than a jury trial, so we have to go with it, after all the avenues of legal defence are exhausted.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/08/2025 09:55

Pregnancyquestion · 13/08/2025 09:40

i actually did say if the insulin is the only evidence that isn’t as easily discounted then where’s the evidence that it was her, but does sound like there are holes to be poked in the insulin evidence too

Sorry I think I read you comment slightly wrong. Yes, I agree with you.

OP posts:
Newbutoldfather · 13/08/2025 09:57

Today in The Times:

Lucy Letby’s defence expert says appeal case has ‘serious flaws’

www.thetimes.com/article/cb17c56c-a84a-44e6-bebb-a041debfd02a?shareToken=d0e57d5bf5a420a82ab49099bf9eebdc

ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary · 13/08/2025 10:02

FanofLeaves · 12/08/2025 13:21

I do think she’s guilty and always have. However, things have come to light since which make me concerned for the safety of that conviction.

The conviction possibly being overturned doesn’t make her innocent.

These are also my thoughts. Having spent time in SCBU with my preterm infant, I can’t see how she is innocent. In general, babies who are doing okay don’t just suddenly crash and it certainly doesn’t happen again and again. However, the evidence against her seems to be entirely circumstantial so in the legal sense, it’s also hard to see how she was convicted.

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