Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

[Kittybythelighthouse]

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation.

Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case,

Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left):
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

I will see if I can find it. But in any case, the bodies were long gone by the time McPartland was brought in to review them.

She was the original pathologist for child D and possibly one other child as well, and that might be what you read about? Thirlwall did ask her whether there would have been a forensic post-mortem if suspicions had been reported at the time of the children's deaths, and she said yes, of course. But no suspicions were included in the reports to the pathologists at time of death, even though it was the same consultants who accused Letby who drew up the reports. It's hard to blame their management for that.

There is a very interesting article in yesterday’s Mail on Sunday that shows there were papers detailing how she repeatedly raised the alarm on the poor standards of care in the unit. Dr. Stephen Brearey, who was one of the two doctors to investigate LL’s involvement in “purposely harming babies,” was in the group who investigated her complaints and later amended her incident form to say that the medical resources mentioned were not necessary for this particular case. The case against Lucy Letby is daily appearing to have more holes than a fishing net.

Maybe it’s either my brain or a journalist splicing Thirwall questions and Jo being asked to review by hospital together and then mucking up the timeline.

@Oftenaddled “The idea that they were coming under pressure from management not to report concerns, or that police were discussed at all, is just not sustainable.”

In fact records show that the doctors were happy for Letby simply not to return to the unit. Job done. Let the killer nurse go and kill elsewhere.

It was Tony Chambers that said police would have to be involved if intentional harm was proven and that he would make that call himself.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0003156.pdf

@Viviennemaryplease could you give me a link to the DM article you mentioned?

thanks

That’s right. She was diligent at filling in Datix reports which often looked bad for the barely there consultants, especially Brearey who was unit manager. That’s actual whistleblowing.

Its the DM though so it’s overly sensational as always.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15006659/Bombshell-Lucy-Letby-papers-revenge-claim-nurse-doctors-blunders-baby-target.html

Gosh, not particularly responsible of them.

‘Off you go, Lucy, kill elsewhere, so long as I don’t have to deal with it.’

Safeguarding champions.

Placemarking

Here’s that article sans paywall: archive.ph/EWVwh

I know, right? Real heroes.

Maybe they can make a lanyard strap (line)

Thank you.

Well, Dr Jayaram was supposedly in (somewhat premature) “talks” re a Jed Mercurio drama, so I wouldn’t put merch tie-ins past him!

‘medical resources mentioned were not necessary to deal with the incident and in any case were not 'routinely kept on the unit'

Alexa, how common is it for premature babies to experience acidosis….

When people complain about “management” in this case they forget that both Jayaram and Brearey were managers too. Brearey, in particular, has culpability for many of the failings in care that led to these deaths. 2 consultant ward rounds a week is never going to be acceptable in a level 2 NICU. No actual neonatologists on site is also unacceptable.

Framing deaths as “unexpected” when doctors were barely there to ‘expect’ any deaths is quite something. Meanwhile nurse’s notes are full of failed attempts to get doctors on site in a timely fashion and also clear signs of decline.

When you realise that Lucy Letby knew things went wrong with the resuscitation of baby O, even if not exactly what; and that she must have noticed the consultants not showing up in the required 5 minutes - it was more than half an hour, you realise her stress levels must have been through the roof the next day when the next triplet collapsed. She's been accused of seeming over-bright (but also noted to have been in floods of tears after the child died). She fainted at work that evening.

And yet we are supposed to judge her despairing comment to a consultant that the second triplet, "isn't leaving here alive, is he?" as a veiled threat rather than a panicked and accurate comment on the state of things. (The consultant took offense and walked out of the room. Helpful and proportionate as ever).

I honestly cannot believe Brearey is claiming this shit.

I can only hope that the Mail is incorrectly reporting.

Yes. Look at Jane Hawdon's comment, made after she was told of the consultants' concerns. You could have sinister action, truly unexpected collapse and death or:

>a slowly deteriorating baby eg infection, shallow breathing, but signs missed until baby collapsed and resuscitation too late or not optimal, even in a busy unit competent nursing and medical staff and systems
should be in place to prevent the majority of such cases.

In some I did have concerns regarding escalation and timing. If subtle signs are missed or not escalated or responded too, in some cases alarms going off is too late.
Sadly even alarms are missed or ignored on occasions, which is below an acceptable standard of care.

If units are "running hot" there should be situational awareness that risk of these is greater and workforce and workload managed appropriately. So there may have been an inherent system or leadership problem before change in designation.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/evidence/inq0014376-pages-1-3-of-emails-between-ian-harvey-and-dr-hawdon-dated-14-02-2017/ - then she goes on to offer a tip on managing the consultants' egos ...

If the jury had been allowed to see the evidence from Hawdon, which is part of the RCPCH report, I really doubt they'd have convicted.

Also covered in the Telegraph, by the way, which has some different cases:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/17/lucy-letby-raised-alarm-poor-care-of-babies-in-her-hospital/

or

https://archive.is/Ci7TM

I know exactly how I respond when flooded with cortisol and adrenaline on a regular basis

It would look suspicious in retrospect, and its itching likd Hollywood displays.

My father was similar - ex firefighter - bumbling idiot in daily life, amazing in a crisis, took it very hard when it was a bad outcome, wanted to get straight back into it shortly after.

“The consultant took offense and walked out of the room. Helpful and proportionate as ever).”

This is the same consultant that kept going for a smoke while all this was going on.

Oh and this is also the same consultant who directly suffocated a baby to death the previous year by wrongly intubating him into his food pipe and not his windpipe and ignored 5 separate alarms deciding that the machines must be faulty.

And didn't show up for more than 35 minutes when the alarm sounded the day before, leaving nurses and junior doctors alone to manage baby O's resuscitation when a consultant should have taken charge within five minutes.

Which consultant was it?

This consultant was granted anonymity and is described in Thirlwall as Dr V and court records as Dr B. She did report to the coroner Dr Brearey's drawing blood during an attempt to aspirate, during the resuscitation of baby O, but that was months after the postmortem so not reflected in the pathologist's report.

You get the impression - and this is just my impression - that she really was too stressed to be working in that environment.

yeah, that’s certainly the impression.

Interesting she was granted lifelong anonymity since she killed a premie a due to a mistake taught in basic resus courses: if the chest isn’t rising you’re not getting air in them, abx she had yhd benefit equipment telling her air wasn't going into the lungs. I stand my first statement on this: rookie mistake.