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Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 12:54

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation.

Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case,

Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left):
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

Page 38 | Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind? | Mumsnet

I’ve been sensing a shift in opinions on the Lucy Letby case and I’m interested in hearing from people who have changed their mind either way. Did y...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 23:29

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 23:18

Things seem to be veering off onto a very odd trajectory.

You think McDonald fancies himself as Trump, and that the experts on the panel are only experts because he’s said they are?

No I think he talks in a way that is very much like Trump and you can't trust him not to wildly exaggerate their credentials.

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 23:31

Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 23:29

No I think he talks in a way that is very much like Trump and you can't trust him not to wildly exaggerate their credentials.

Do you think there may be another way of verifying the credentials?

kkloo · 13/08/2025 23:32

@Firefly1987
10 months really isn't that long for 22 charges of such a serious nature.

The longest trial in UK history was 20 months for 27 charges, and that was for fraud. Not sure what the maximum sentence they could have faced was, but it certainly wasn't a whole life tariff.

I genuinely believe it was held to the best standard possible considering how complex it was.
This just sounds like it was complex so it was 'good enough'. Many disagree completely.

She had a chance to call an expert for her defence-it's not the system's fault she didn't.

And now she has a chance to go through the CRCC, which is what she's trying to do.

Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 23:34

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 23:31

Do you think there may be another way of verifying the credentials?

I know that the bloke they have to come up with an explanation for the insulin results isn't even a medical expert!

placemats · 13/08/2025 23:38

Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 23:13

No none of us were that's the point. But comments like "the parents deserve to know the truth" as if THEY weren't there everyday at court or barely know anything about the case when it involves their babies and experiences and they heard every single bit of evidence is so so patronising.

Just because some self-aggrandizing Trump clone of a lawyer proclaims his experts to be the best in the world doesn't mean it's close to the truth. I don't know whoever said they were world leading except him 😆yeah he would say that wouldn't he.

The parents would not have been there every day because the trial took place in Manchester and childcare issues, plus work. It went on for 10 months remember.

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 23:47

Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 23:34

I know that the bloke they have to come up with an explanation for the insulin results isn't even a medical expert!

That’s not what I asked you.

Feel free to answer.

Next question - what do you think Geoff Chase does? Have you even looked?

Frequency · 14/08/2025 00:04

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 23:29

Just letting you know, you missed out Evans’ awards

Nope, I didn't. They are all listed in my post above, all zero of his awards.

While looking for awards and recognition that Dewi may have garnered across his career, I did find a statement from Lord Justice Jackson regarding a witness report Evans submitted to his court, which Jackson described as "worthless" and stated that Evans "made no effort to provide a balanced opinion."

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 00:05

Frequency · 14/08/2025 00:04

Nope, I didn't. They are all listed in my post above, all zero of his awards.

While looking for awards and recognition that Dewi may have garnered across his career, I did find a statement from Lord Justice Jackson regarding a witness report Evans submitted to his court, which Jackson described as "worthless" and stated that Evans "made no effort to provide a balanced opinion."

I like your style.

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 00:09

Typicalwave · 13/08/2025 23:47

That’s not what I asked you.

Feel free to answer.

Next question - what do you think Geoff Chase does? Have you even looked?

I believe he's a biomedical engineer? In any case, even he had to admit the results were unusual.

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 00:15

Firefly1987 · 13/08/2025 23:34

I know that the bloke they have to come up with an explanation for the insulin results isn't even a medical expert!

Don't worry. It's a multidisciplinary team working on the insulin cases. I posted about them further up:

Mark McDonald has given the CCRC "three reports on the issue of insulin rejecting the hypothesis that exogenous insulin was given to any baby by Lucy Letby. The reports are written by nine internationally renowned experts in epidemiology, toxicology, biochemistry, biomechanics, statistics, neonatology and engineering. The authors include a Professor of Chemistry and Forensic Science, a Professor in Forensic Toxicology (retired), a Consultant in
Clinical Biochemistry & Chemical Endocrinology, an Associate Professor of the
Department of Statistical Science, a Consultant Paediatric Endocrinologist, an
Emeritus Professor of Paediatrics, and two highly experienced neonatologists, one
based in the UK the other in Canada (in addition to Dr Shoo Lee).

I think it's wonderful that all these people are giving time free to help with this case. Geoff Chase is a mechanical engineer working in biomedicine.That means among other things that he looks at how medical tests and treatments work - things like IV bags, insulin monitors and delivery systems etc. You can see why he's s good person to have on the team.

You can read a bit about mechanical engineering in the biomedical field at https://www.wales247.co.uk/mechanical-engineering-applications-in-the-biomedical-industry if you like.

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 00:16

Ok @Firefly1987 - I’m going to assume you’ve popped off for the night to rest your brain.

Here are a couple of things about Professor J Geoffrey Chase.

See photo and links below:

https://www.hrc.govt.nz/news-and-events/canterbury-engineer-honoured-medical-technology-innovations

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1932296815596175

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20541829/

I think this small sample of his work may indicate he at least dabbles within the medical field.

Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?
Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 00:21

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 00:09

I believe he's a biomedical engineer? In any case, even he had to admit the results were unusual.

Unusual is fine. If they were usual we wouldn't be here.

It's unusual to have extra teeth. About 95% of people don't. But that means that a small number of people will have extra teeth, and if you met enough people, you'd know some like that.

In the same way, if it's unusual but possible to have a certain test result, a number of people will still definitely have it. So we don't need to worry that they've been poisoned when it happens.

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 00:23

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 00:16

Ok @Firefly1987 - I’m going to assume you’ve popped off for the night to rest your brain.

Here are a couple of things about Professor J Geoffrey Chase.

See photo and links below:

https://www.hrc.govt.nz/news-and-events/canterbury-engineer-honoured-medical-technology-innovations

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1932296815596175

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20541829/

I think this small sample of his work may indicate he at least dabbles within the medical field.

Good for him - what a superstar.

It's a bit embarrassing that we are wasting these people's time making them go up against someone like Evans, but it reflects really well on them that they do it.

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 00:26

It's really interesting seeing misinformation make its way through the media. The Spectator had an article today sneering at the international experts and saying they couldn't get hold of an endocrinologist - completely false.

You'd think they'd be embarrassed publishing that kind of nonsense.

girljulian · 14/08/2025 00:28

haven’t changed mind, mainly because I have never been able to understand from the start how anyone could possibly think she was guilty beyond reasonable doubt. When there isn’t even any evidence of a murder being committed!

Frequency · 14/08/2025 00:30

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 00:23

Good for him - what a superstar.

It's a bit embarrassing that we are wasting these people's time making them go up against someone like Evans, but it reflects really well on them that they do it.

The more I read about Evans, the more I am convinced he should never be allowed to set foot in a courtroom as a witness again. Cheshire Police have either not looked into his credentials at all or were unable to find anyone else willing to be their lead witness; I'm not sure which of those is more concerning. Either way, they've done themselves no favours by employing Evans if they wanted an airtight conviction.

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 00:30

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 00:26

It's really interesting seeing misinformation make its way through the media. The Spectator had an article today sneering at the international experts and saying they couldn't get hold of an endocrinologist - completely false.

You'd think they'd be embarrassed publishing that kind of nonsense.

I noticed today in one article I read it implied that the pathologist at the trial was actually one of the original pathologists from the PMs at Alderhey

Tryingmum456 · 14/08/2025 00:34

Nope. After having a look at everything available, I believe she still is guilty.

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 00:54

@Viviennemary ”None of them (her colleagues) have come forward to defend her.” This is a myth that never dies. Many of her colleagues did support her actually. Your googling didn’t take you to the Thirlwall reports? Wherever you went, you were lied to.

Several were told by the trust that they couldn’t (or shouldn’t) testify for her at trial. One COCH neonatal nurse came every day to both trials.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/20/claim-nhs-hospital-told-nurse-dont-give-evidence-lucy-letby/

All of the others submitted reports to Thirlwall. Most reported no issues with her practice or any suspicions. Several were quite forceful in her defence. The reality is nothing like the prosecution’s picture, or tabloid fantasies.

Mumsnet won’t let me hyperlink to the statements, but you can find them on Thirlwall’s documents page. If you have trouble let me know and I can pm them to you.

Thirlwall statements and/or Rule 9 Questionnaire responses:

Jennifer Jones-Key - who was the other party in the infamous ‘trying to get into nursery 1’ exchange. She doesn’t support the prosecution framing of that exchange.

Jones-Key says that she never reported any suspicions of Letby because she never had any.

“I had no concerns regarding Lucy's responses in the WhatsApp messages about wanting to go back to Nursery 1, after she was put in Nursery 3 and found her behaviour to be normal for the situation. When I said "odd" in the WhatsApp message, I was talking about how I would feel odd myself because I do not work in intensive care. I did not mean to say that Lucy was odd for wanting to go back."

Nurse X: “the unit was much busier than it had been when I first started working there. The unit had gone from 7-10 patients being average to routinely having 16-20 patients, without an increase in staffing. This placed pressure on staff who were not used to working with that level of occupancy. This applied to both nursing staff on the ward and the medical staff who were not used to the neonatal unit requiring that level of attention. My perception was that the children's ward took priority for consultants. We had a consultant ward round twice a week, compared to daily on the children's ward, and it could be hard to get decisions on care at times.”

Nurse Joanne Williams “I did not personally have any concerns.” https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0107028.pdf

Abigail Lever - Lever states briefly that she had no suspicions, saw nothing untoward, and having come from a Level 3 unit, saw three deaths in a short space as unfortunate but not something suspicious.

Caroline Bennion: “I recall Lucy Letby being a professional and competent nurse. I had no concerns regarding her practice."

Caroline Oakley: “I can recall wondering whether the rash had something to do with the previous leak through the ceiling in Nursery 1 near to where Child D was nursed…to the best of my knowledge, it contained soilage which made me wonder."

Amy Davis: “I cannot recall having any concerns that Lucy Letby had been caring for Child Q."

Cheryl Cuthbertson-Taylor: “I found the unit very stressful during this period [2015-2016] due to increasing staff shortages and the increasing work load that was being expected of a band 4, Even Tho I was an experienced band 4 nurse I had not seen the staffing issues as bad as I had in 2015-2016. I was being asked to complete tasks that I was under qualified for I.e babies that required a band 5/6 nurse”

Jean Peers: “you could never say you had a feeling about her, she was an unassuming girl and I worked with her quite a bit and we worked well together and treated each other with respect."

Minna-Maria Lapalainen: Lappalainen emphasizes the poor staffing levels and feels that "medical staff should have supported nursing staff better." She gives a rundown of all the indictment babies she was involved with, describes mottling as quite common, and explain that Letby arriving early for her day shift with Baby N was not unusual, as the police had been trying to imply it was.

Nicole Dennison: “I was not particularly worried about the increase of deaths on the Neonatal Unit because we had a lot of babies who were very poorly, some of which were born to very poorly mothers and as such our statistics naturally increased. We also had a high incidence of congenital abnormalities which included heart conditions and gastroschisis, for example. We were at maximum capacity for the majority of the time”

Christopher Booth email: An email from Christopher Booth praising his coworkers: "I just wanted to send an email to commend the great team I was lucky enough to work with last night (Thursday night), a really traumatic night, but everyone: Lucy, Mel, Ashleigh and Val, worked incredibly hard and maintained an incredibly high professional standard in the midst of such a difficult and upsetting situation. Bearing in mind we admitted a 33+6/40 infant right in the epicentre of resuscitation attempts, and that the baby was well cared for bears testament to the great team I worked with last night."

Christopher Booth’s witness statement: describes the NNU as being busier than usual, not being listened to when requesting more nurses, and that although he thought the unit worked very well, it "really could have benefitted from the expertise of a neonatologist." He had no suspicions of Letby and had worked well with her.

Alison Ventress: “Babies vomit frequently for many reasons, and the description of vomits is extremely subjective. I don't give much attention to how big or projectile the vomit is reported for a single vomit. Rather, I would assess the baby's condition and that would impact my management more than the description of the vomit.”

Bernadette Butterworth: “I was aware that there was an increased number of deaths but as I have previously stated earlier in this witness statement, we were busy at the time, and at the time I probably would have associated the increase in mortality to being busy and therefore an increase in poorly babies or babies becoming poorly, as previously documented babies can deteriorate quickly."

Janet Cox, who attended every day of both trials:

Affirmed she had no concerns or suspicions about Letby’s conduct, describing Letby as “an exemplary nurse” entirely innocent of any alleged crimes. Noted that some consultants and staff seemed to be making Letby a scapegoat for increased deaths or collapses, though she couldn’t recall exact details or dates. While acknowledging that any death is troubling, she didn’t perceive anything sinister at the time - or thereafter - regarding the increase in fatalities or collapses within the NNU. She also emphasised that many of the babies were already at high risk, given their clinical condition on admission.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 00:58

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 00:30

I noticed today in one article I read it implied that the pathologist at the trial was actually one of the original pathologists from the PMs at Alderhey

That’s not true. Where did that come from?

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 01:01

Frequency · 14/08/2025 00:30

The more I read about Evans, the more I am convinced he should never be allowed to set foot in a courtroom as a witness again. Cheshire Police have either not looked into his credentials at all or were unable to find anyone else willing to be their lead witness; I'm not sure which of those is more concerning. Either way, they've done themselves no favours by employing Evans if they wanted an airtight conviction.

It’s a predictable product of how unsuitable for purpose the expert witness system is. Police just want someone who will sing their tune. There’s no oversight from the judiciary as to who qualifies beyond the most basic criteria. There’s no standard of quality. It’s very well paid. It’s a recipe for charlatans who aren’t good enough to be busy publishing research or doing important work, That’s just a MoJ pipeline.

OP posts:
Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 01:03

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 00:58

That’s not true. Where did that come from?

i can’t remember - I think it was the Times article linked earlier over Mike Hall’s concerns. I could have misread it - but yhd way I read it, it read as if one of the original pathologists gave evidence at the trial

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 01:11

Oftenaddled · 13/08/2025 13:16

While that child's medical records were online, one could see that Panorama (last year's episode) had literally blurred out the data showing his blood sugar crash again after Letby left the ward, and through two changes of treatments. They claimed he "recovered" once she was off shift.

This is crazy. I didn’t know this. That’s extremely dishonest. Which panorama? The first or the second? (Newest one wax the third)

OP posts:
Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 01:14

The Jolly Contrinarian has made a very handy list of all thd experts, and a list of former colleagues - complete with hyperlinks to statements/interviews etc.

Each entry is colour coded as pink for the prosecutions or ‘against’ LL or green for the defence or ‘no concerns’

https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Lucy_Letby:_those_experts_in_full

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 01:21

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 01:11

This is crazy. I didn’t know this. That’s extremely dishonest. Which panorama? The first or the second? (Newest one wax the third)

Here you are. It was the second Panorama. You can see when this user pointed it out on Twitter, people weren't sure if they were seeing a 1.9 or a 4.9

https://x.com/triedbystats/status/1848266546914754637

When the Thirlwall Inquiry accidentally uploaded this child's medical notes, they contained the 1.9, and further deteriorations afterwards.

Not pretty, what Moritz and Coffey are willing to do with this story, is it?

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