Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

[Kittybythelighthouse]

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation.

Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case,

Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left):
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

Oh FFS. Not this .

The poster was trying to be the good little whipped white person by virtue signalling to black people that bad little white person acknowledges she has "unconscious bias" towards her because she's white.

Its worked against her here. Hence your post.

It's all horseshit. The racism trope started coming in to shut down anyone who questioned her innocence.

Well then you're focusing on all the wrong things aren't you. I knew this had to be about misandry. Usually is on here. And to think I've been the one to be accused of bias repeatedly (even though I thought she was innocent before trial) when it's actually just that people can't believe a woman did horrific things and that there's not a man to blame somewhere. You've certainly tried to place the blame everywhere else but where it lies. Blame every man you could. Some have had their reputations dragged through the mud and accused of negligence with the babies themselves just for trying to get her brought to justice.

I wasn't going to comment again but it was two female detectives that spoke very movingly outside court after she was convicted so I just have to rebut that. One or both were in the documentary afterwards too. And I'm sure they had a very big hand in bringing her to justice along with any male detectives. In particular I remember one of them describing the shock over the insulin evidence as that came out a bit later in their investigation.

Besides, most of her saddo fans with placards and music videos about her are male and they seem convinced of her innocence.

"saddo fans" and you were doing so well.

There were a lot of things that the police used in the case that were complete nonsense. The diary “secret code” is one of the most nonsensical ones. What you’ve posted there @Moonlightdust is not what Lucy Letby wrote in her diary, but what the dum dums in Cheshire police “data analysis” thought and alleged. Where did you get this from? It’s been debunked absolute ages ago. It didn’t even make it through the trial, because Sophie Ellis’s texts to Lucy Letby reflected the exact same shift pattern. It was never “the initials of babies” or anything else.

Remember Cheshire Police are the same geniuses who managed to muck up the door swipe data for the entire trial, not being clever enough to understand (or seemingly to check?!) that at COCH NICU you only swipe in, and not out. As a result they buggered up all the timings that the prosecution relied on to “prove” who was where and when. They realised eventually, but not until after Lucy Letby was convicted.

Anyway, the diary is - like many things in this case - completely unremarkable. Even boring. All it does it’s record her shifts in normal nursing shorthand. For example, LD means ‘long day’ - nurse speak for a double shift. Cheshire Police misread that as LO - one of the baby’s initials - but in court the shift pattern and date was backed up by Sophie Ellis’s texts to Lucy Letby at the time. LD - long day, nothing more.

Cheshire police, who I could not have more disdain for, thought it was “secret code” with the baby’s initials because they are clowns. It was not a secret code. They could have asked literally any nurse, but they seemingly didn’t even think of that either.

Standard nursing shift shorthand ‘codes’ are LD, ON, AM, PM, (I hear there’s a NOB shift too - “no other bastard” wants it - and I feel that)- I may be missing others but it doesn’t matter here. Anyway, if a nurse doesn’t keep track of their shifts, especially when working extras or doubles, it’s hard to know if their pay is correct at the end of the cycle. Or even what day to go in.

Many hospital rostering and timesheet systems are outdated, relying on accurate data entry and careful checking of payslips. Different shifts pay different penalty rates, so keeping your own diary is essential to avoid being underpaid.

Occasionally, a manager forgets to update the day sheet, meaning the database misses a shift and you don’t get paid. To jog their memory, it helps to note which patients or lists you handled.

There’s no “secret serial killer code” here. It’s just about making sure you get paid. That’s literally it.

With regard to shift notes/diary. Most of us on shifts keep a "diary" of when we are working, when we have overtime and when we have swapped shifts.

It is very easy to have a work "diary", and a personal "diary" running along side each other using google (amongst others) and given the nature of LL's work notes about patients wouldn't be that odd (IMO).

I'm talking about the ones making music videos about her and chanting with placards. If you don't think that's sad whichever side you're on then I don't know what to tell you!

I haven't seen music videos or the signs. But protesting outside courts etc. with signs is just another way of getting media coverage.

She's guilty, Taking prints of the hands and feet of the dead babies. Those poor parents.

My sister got hand and footprints of her baby after she sadly miscarried at 25 weeks. A nurse took the hand and footprints, gently cleaned her, and dressed her in a robe donated to the hospital by a charity.

I can hardly imagine a more heart-wrenching job. To say that it is proof of murder is utterly disgusting and incredibly hurtful not only to the beautiful nurses who do this for parents but also to the parents and family of the babies who cherish those keepsakes forever.

Thank you for the link - that was a fascinating insight into what may have influenced the defense decision making.

Report her for what?! The fact is the parents have spoken out about this. One baby was buried in a gown LL had picked out. That is absolutely devastating for any parent to live with. I won't go into her behaviour again as I've already repeated myself over many threads (I've had to because people simply aren't aware of most of this) but she was often involved in the making up of memory boxes and putting herself forward to do that. The PP is not wrong with any of this.

The absolute hypocrisy of thinking about the parents and what all this is doing to them for the first time in the entire thread-and it's because a PP brought up what the parents themselves had said. I think that's the least upsetting comment they'd find in this whole thread tbh.

This might be straying from the current conversation a bit, so apologies, but I thought it was worth saying.

One thing that is mentioned a lot by those who think she is guilty is, if course, the so-called confession note.

I, too, remember reading a headline along the lines of ‘I DID IT: accused killer nurse’s confession’ and thinking that was it - case closed, but then I read what she actually wrote and was shocked because I too, had written something very very similar after my daughter was stillborn a number of years ago.

My notes were: I did it, I killed her, I’m a murderer, I’m worse than a murderer, I deserve to be executed, I don’t deserve to live, there is no prison sentence long enough for me. I killed her with my arrogance/stupidity’ and I could go on.

To be clear, there was no cause found for my daughter’s death but I found a million reasons to blame myself, because I am conscientious and pride myself on keeping my children safe. And I couldn’t keep her safe.

At times, I was completely convinced I’d killed her because I was disappointed to find out she was a girl / because I had trouble gaining weight and didn’t try hard enough to force food down / because I didn’t intuit there was a problem until too late (a good mother would)/ because I felt smug when a midwife told me I was having the perfect pregnancy / because I forgot my vitamins more than once / because I once ate some meat that looked pink / because I had a sip of wine / because I exercised in my third trimester / because I got pregnant too quickly after my first / because I wasn’t at my pre pregnancy weight when I fell pregnant again / because I carried DD1’s pram to the car boot the day I found out my baby died and that certainly caused it.

It’s years later, and I’m happy and have moved forward, but if I dwell too long on it, I can’t absolutely say that I don’t - on some level - still believe i am guilty. It was on my watch, after all.

I share this because, reading Lucy’s note, I see echoes of the same mindset: someone conscientious, emotionally attached to those in her care, and overwhelmed by guilt — whether rational or not. I can’t know if that’s the case for her, but it’s another possible interpretation of what has been described as a “confession.”

It also must be incredibly upsetting for the parents of the babies to see. And yes believe it or not, someone made a music video...

Wanting to do something (i.e, make a memory box) to ease a bereaved person's pain, even a tiny bit, is not evidence of murder. It is ridiculous to even suggest it is, not to mention insulting to those nurses who do that for parents.

Also, I find it hard to believe that her colleagues have said she was excited by the babies' deaths, given that not a single nurse or HCA has spoken out against her. In fact, four of her colleagues wanted to testify in her favour but were warned it would not be good for their careers.

It is more likely that the media have published snippets of text or email conversations out of context, and armchair psychologists have deciphered emotions that are not actually there.

I'm not denying that there is, possibly, some evidence against her (depending on which expert you listen to), but what the media has said colleagues might think of her is not it.

I see comments about the parents a lot from the 'she is just guilty get over it' brigade and it comes across as really hypocritical. Firstly I think it would be equally hard to be in a position where the wrong person might have been accused and there is credible doubt about the safety of the conviction. I dont know if LL is guilty or innocent, but from the beginning, the case put forward seemed to have significant issues and that has only been strengthened by evidence from actual world experts in this field.

Secondly the conducting of this case has raised many wider issues of conduct in major institutions that we all need to rely on - namely the NHS, Police and the justice system. The idea that these discussions should not continue because of the feelings of certain people, however bad we feel for them and however terrible and tragic their situation is, is frankly terrifying.

I have no doubt that it is incredibly upsetting for the parents. I have agreed and said so on other threads.
But this shouldn't change the fact that the court sentence must be sound.
If LL didn't do this then they have a right to know what caused the deaths of their children and that it will not happen again, if LL did do this then they can be sure in the knowledge that the person that murdered their children will never see the light of day again.

We need to know that this will not happen again and that the system is improved for all, and as far as I can see this is not happening.

Edit
If LL didn't do this then the thirlwell enquiry is completely pointless.

But for this thread you kind of do

You are adamant that she is guilty

There are a whole host of people - professionals, experts, who are casting doubt

So as a lay person, why do you personally find her guilty BEYOND DOUBT?

Myself, I dont know, I was never there, I never met the woman , I can not put my hand on my heart and say she is guilty

So all I had to go on was what was presented as evidence

Only now that evidence is being torn down bit by bit

Witnessess have been proven to have purjured themselves, half the experts had never even read a single case note of a child she was accused of harming or killing, statistics have been massaged to prove guilt

So now Im saying, I feel that the evidence she was convicted on isnt sound. Im not saying she is guilty or innocent , Im saying she was never given a fair trial and that's the foundation we base our judicial system on - a fair trial

I dont believe she had that

There's not doubt with the parents though. Everything they've said so far since the trial ended has been firm they know she is 100% guilty. People really need to listen to what they've said about all this.

And no one is saying discussions can't continue, it was a PP who said they were going to report someone who thinks she's guilty not the other way around! I assume the parents are sadly having to avoid all social media so hopefully never see these kinds of threads. As for protesting, they should get on with it quietly if they think it's a miscarriage of justice, so there's less chance the parents will come across it. And you could take LL out of it completely if you want to take on the NHS, police etc. if LL is guilty then there aren't actually any issues with those institutions re this case!

To be fair I think several people have mentioned thoughts for the parents.

Again I think that the hand and footprints stuff is only creepy if you think she’s a killer. All neonatal nurses do this type of thing. Remember many of the parents liked her at the time. Some liked her a lot. One set of parents wanted to ask her to be godmother.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/02/nurse-accused-of-murdering-babies-prided-herself-on-being-very-competent

“If LL didn't do this then the thirlwell enquiry is completely pointless.”

Pointless, absurd, and extremely expensive.

I disagree. Even if LL is guilty, doctors perjuring themselves, shoddy police work which seemed to respond to supposition instead of actually collecting evidence, managers admitting babies the ward was not appropriate to treat, the structural problems of trying to nurse small fragile lives on a ward literally full of shit, and a legal situation which allowed Dewi Evans to present 'expert' testimony which was so flawed cannot be a quiet protest.

I dont for sure know that every single parent who tragically lost a child feels the same way. I have read statements from some for sure. But it is not clear to me that they have one view.

Unfortunately, though, even if they were of one mind, we cannot allow possible miscarriages of justice to be unchallenged to protect the feelings of a few people. Its awful that this has happened to them and must be very painful. But these issues are too big to be shut down.

It doesn’t matter if they think they know she is 100% guilty. They don’t know any more than anyone else at this point. They have suffered the trauma of losing a child and then on top of that, years later they’re suddenly told their babies were murdered. Naturally they’re going to want closure and the perpetrator to face justice. I think it’s understandable that they would be resistant to the idea that she might be innocent after all that.

Sadly that has no bearing on whether the case is reviewed. “People really need to listen to what they’ve said…”, no actually they don’t. It isn’t relevant.

I agree. It's the entire context though. It's hard to put it across in just a few sentences-you'd need pages and pages! Which is why I've given up trying. People just need to go read up for themselves on the type of things she was doing and make up their own minds from that. You would really hope she was innocent because tainting the parents last moments with their babies after she killed them is just another layer of unbelievable evil.

“As for protesting, they should get on with it quietly if they think it's a miscarriage of justice, so there's less chance the parents will come across it.”

What do you mean by “protesting”? Is this thread a form of protest? Or do you mean literally out on the street with banners etc?

Either way, no miscarriage of justice on this scale gets re examined without public and media pressure. That’s just a fact. It’s too much of a hot potato otherwise. The postmasters, Birmingham six, Guildford Four, etc etc all had massive media exposure and public pressure that was crucial to their eventual release/quashed verdicts.

There would be complete silence if there was no media/public pressure. The case simply has to be reviewed and either shown to be a safe conviction or vacated. It’s unfortunate for the parents, but it’s not just about them. This is of massive public importance. It matters to each and every one of us - even if we don’t know it. We didn’t ask for all of this. The bottom line is that there will be many more grieving parents and many more dead babies if the actual source issues are not addressed.

“And you could take LL out of it completely if you want to take on the NHS, police etc. if LL is guilty then there aren't actually any issues with those institutions re this case!”

It’s not about “wanting to take on” anybody. I’m a busy woman. I have a LOT to do. I’m sure most of us do. I don’t give lots of time to this for no reason. I’d rather not have to do it!

However, it’s already been shown that there are serious, serious issues here that will only be addressed and dealt with following a full and proper transparent review. If a review (whatever form it takes) shows some aha piece of evidence that shows she’s guilty - something real, not a Dewi Evans fantasy - then all well and good. But it needs to be shown.

If it is shown to be a MoJ then multiple institutions will have to answer a lot of questions. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it, but simply doing nothing and waiting politely for the judiciary to check its homework won’t work. That isn’t going to happen now anyway. It’s just too big now and there’s far too much at stake.

I swear to you I’ve read everything. I have the full context. Take the filter of ‘evil baby killer’ off and it’s just a nurse, who raised no suspicions at the time and to this day is supported by many of her colleagues, doing what nurses do. You find that compelling, I don’t. If there was evidence that murders actually happened in the first place I might be interested in things like that, but there isn’t. Again, we can agree to disagree!

“I dont for sure know that every single parent who tragically lost a child feels the same way. I have read statements from some for sure. But it is not clear to me that they have one view.
Unfortunately, though, even if they were of one mind, we cannot allow possible miscarriages of justice to be unchallenged to protect the feelings of a few people. Its awful that this has happened to them and must be very painful. But these issues are too big to be shut down.”

@Hotflushesandchilblains yes I agree here. I’ve noticed that when statements are read out it never all of the parents and Richard Baker was representing some of the parents at Thirlwall. Not all. They aren’t a monolith.

In particular, any whose babies were hurt or killed after baby k - surely you’d be livid that the consultants played email relay with management for over a year - allowing a baby killer to stalk the wards - instead of going directly to the coroner, the anonymised Cheshire child death panel, or the police?! They knew how to dial 999. An 8 year old would know to do that. Meanwhile we discover at Thirlwall that Dr Brearey had a “drawer of doom” filled with supposed evidence that he refused to share with anybody. What?! If I was one if those parents I’d have a lot of questions right now.

“Unfortunately, though, even if they were of one mind, we cannot allow possible miscarriages of justice to be unchallenged to protect the feelings of a few people. Its awful that this has happened to them and must be very painful. But these issues are too big to be shut down.”

100% this. Again, the public didn’t ask for this or create it. The problem is there, it affects all of us, and it needs to be addressed.