Did some ND children starve before chicken nuggets were invented?

[BusWankers]

I'm not being horrible, genuinely curious.

You read on here how a child who has autism or some other issue, will only eat safe foods. Usually a lot of things like chicken nuggets, a particular brand of cheese and onion crisps, Nutella, supermarket pizzas (UPF mostly)

Do we think children in the 1920s just went hungry? Or perhaps they were forced to eat foods they didn't like. After all you do hear stories,of adults even now being made to sit at the table and choke down food etc.

I was force fed at nursery.
I am 43. I’m not neuro diverse but I have always been small (5 ft) so just didn’t need to eat that much. The nursery has been investigated for many other things since. I’m not traumatised by it, can barely remember it but my mum remembers it.

So presumably that happened a lot more in the past than it does now.

My DD has always been a very picky/fussy eater ever since she was weaned.And as she was my PFB I followed Annabel Karmel to the letter! I saw a dietician when she was about 2 and they advised to just give what she will eat, even if that is chips.
She went through a phase where she seemed to only eat porridge, bread sticks and petite filous.

She is extremely sensitive to heat or spice, to the point if you put a few grinds of black pepper on something it's too hot.
She's 18 now and DH thought she'd "grow out of it" when she went to uni, because she'd be embarrassed to be so fussy....but she still eats quite a small variation of food including lots of "beige food". She wants to like more interesting food but doesn't like the taste/texture of most new things she tries.

I'm autistic and there a lot of foods I don't eat. In my late teens I went on a volunteering project in a developing country, and lived with a local family. Family and volunteers ate together, a single meal. There were no supermarkets, and limited kinds of food for sale locally. I was old enough to realise how incredibly rude it'd be for me to make a fuss over it, so I ate what I could. The results:

There were a couple of vegetables I'd have refused to eat before that ended up being tolerable and I continued to eat after I came home.
There were other foods that I genuinely couldn't eat, despite trying. I used to say I wasn't hungry when they were served.
I filled up on sugary tea and bread where I could (while also being careful not to take more than my fair share!)

I was fine, but I also lost more than a stone in 3 months, and I wasn't large to begin with. It wouldn't have been sustainable long-term unless I was able to choose/cook my own meals - and that was as a young adult willing and trying to eat foods that weren't on the 'safe list'. I can see how children in that situation would really struggle. Depending on how severe their food restrictions were, yes, they might starve.

Slight detail, but anyone else remember the days (early ‘80s) when Ribena was sold in pharmacies, as if it were some healthful drink?! 😂 At least it had vitamin C I suppose, which would have been helpful for your friend for keeping scurvy at bay.

It reminds me of the allergy argument. ‘We didn’t have kids with allergies in my day’- yes, because lots had died before they left babyhood! It was called ‘failure to thrive’. Even 30+ years ago milk intolerance wasn’t recognised. I was vomiting blood as a baby and nearly died- they just said I had severe ‘oesophageal reflux’. My parents had friends whose baby girl died of the same thing.

It wasn’t until I had my own children that I realised I was actually intolerant to dairy.

As an 80s child I only ate Rice Krispies, apples, a few flavours of crisps, chips (only if made a certain way), white bread toast, cheese, chocolate, bananas and sausages. I had jam sandwiches in school. In my mid teens I tried curry chips after that my taste opened up and I started to try pizza, salad and as I got older this just kept growing. I pretty much eat anything now and actually prefer spicy foods rather than the bland I grew up with. I can imagine I’m slightly on the ND spectrum.

I do have a child who is ND. At 2 she hit a block and stopped eating. It was horrible, she would eat nothing and I tried so hard with her. In the end I decided this battle every meal time is not sustainable and stressed us both out so caved to the chips for all meals. She’s thriving and is finally starting to open her mind to other foods now she’s hitting puberty. I won’t give up on her but know not to force feed her like my mum did me. I hated it and there is still things I won’t eat due to the memory of being force fed it. I give my kids vitamins daily and this is non negotiable as much drama as it once caused. Her dietician and paediatrician are pleased with how well she’s doing. She would happily starve if I didn’t give her what she’s comfortable to eat.

Their safe foods were things like bread or potatoes.

We didn't think we could "solve" kids eating issues. So we went for essentially something like a pasta bar.

We'd cook the pasta and serve it plain in the serving dish. Have two different sauces (eg one tomato one creamy), grated cheese in a bowl, salad items separately served. Eg a bowl of cherry tomatoes, a bowl of cucumber, a bowl of lettuce, a bowl of pepper.
We didn't care as long as they ate! Some kids would have the pasta, both sauces, cheese mixed up in it and all the salad... Some would eat plain pasta and a sprinkle if plain cheese.

Camp next door said we were ridiculous because they would only serve tomato pasta and said the kids shouldn't be fussy! Some of their kids were eating just a bit of grated cheese or a few bits of cucumber. We went over and offered them some of ours in the end. They were very happy to eat their plain pasta!

As was Lucozade - looked forward to it when I was poorly in the 50s - bright orange sugar!

My brother was undiagnosed as he was born in 1982 but I am certain that he has ASD. Him eating proper meals rather than baby food and finger foods coincided with UPFs becoming a very popular choice for busy mums to make for the evening meal. He very quickly refused to eat anything apart from oven chips and a few baked beans with chicken nuggets (would occasionally tolerate sausages or fish fingers). Sunday lunch was a battlefield as he just wouldn’t eat any of it apart from roast potatoes and Yorkshire puddings.

i am pretty sure that I am also ND, but I was served ‘proper’ foods every evening until my brother became old enough to refuse food and we were put on a diet of chicken nuggets. I was far less fussy about food, but I still had my issues with it - I point blank refused to eat anything sloppy in texture, so no gravy, no stews or casseroles, no custard, and I’d eat the pastry lid of a pie but not the filling. So although I would eat various meats, fish, veg, potatoes, rice, fruit, different flavours etc, I still had hard limits, and I would guess that counts as food aversion due to ASD to an extent. I would imagine that if my brother had never been exposed to UPF he would have eaten potatoes in various forms, bread and maybe some meats…so a bit better than UPFs but still very limited.

I’m so sorry to hear that 💐

I do not believe anyone is overweight out of pure greed.
There is always an underlying reason, whether they realise it or not.

Food also releases feel food endorphins and so it could be that you binge because you need that high and that food was something positive from your childhood.

So you associate food with positive things but then feel guilty so you feel you have to starve yourself and then you feel like crap and so binge again.

Or the opposite.
Instead of physically hurting yourself, you use food as a form of self harm. Lots of people self harm but they don’t even realise it.

Lots of people use drugs and alcohol in the same way people abuse food but we seem to judge people more when it’s food.
All of them are absolutely associated with numbing trauma in some way.

You could ‘talk’ it through with ChatGPT and perhaps work out how to break the cycle.

If you don't understand, then why not ask in good faith with an open mind? Rather than approaching something with judgement, when by your own admission you don't know the reasons behind it?

Also, to clarify, are you saying that autistic children with preferred foods are "addicted" to those foods?

Ds was 16 at that time. It was an absolute nightmare. Incidentally we introduced upf foods to him as a child because all his other safe foods were seen as healthy but had very little protein eg plain pasta, plain rice, bread and butter, cucumber, carrots, peas, sweetcorn & green beans. The only protein in his diet was from milk, yoghurt and cream cheese.

During lockdown he ate fishfingers (as long as they were not too fishy) and Aldi/Lidl popcorn chicken. He used to eat quorn sausages but they changed the recipie and we stockpiled the old recipie ones. During lockdown we still had a few left they lasted a few months at the rate of one per week.

Aged 21 ds is very small and underweight. As a toddler he was all skin and bones.

My safe foods are potatoes and bread.

My mum is similar fussy eater

My ds is autistic and has adhd and Arfid, he has safe foods but they’re not crap because he’s never been fed crap.
if you feed a NT crap all the time they’re going to get addicted to it even worse for a ND child. It’s just convenient for parents and then blame it on the child.

my 4 year old nephews ‘safe food’ is McDonald’s.

The amount of times I was sick at the dinner table, you'd have thought my dad would have realised there was an actual reason for me not eating certain foods.

Years ago I worked as a dietitian in a Romanian orphanage. The kids were so hungry / had known real hunger they would eat absolutely anything. However there were a couple, in retrospect neurodiverse, who were absolutely rigid. One particular kid would only eat blended food despite being way past weaning she, only for his special spoon. No chicken nuggets there. Any deviation resulted in his table being turned over and a screaming rage. The ARFID was incredibly hard wired.

I was a very fussy eater as a child in the 80s. DM cooked from scratch and we rarely had anything that would now be described as UPF. Dinner times were hell on earth as I was made to clear my plate, and sit at the table, often for an hour after everyone else, in the hope I would eat something before she gave up.

I have lifelong food issues, particularly around over eating UPF and 'unhealthy' foods, which really started as a teen and then at uni when I started making my own food choices.

As a kid, going on school trips, Brownie camps and to friends houses for tea were always a source of stress, but I did do these things and I probably survived on bread and butter (still my go to snack/meal).

I swore not to do this to my own DC (now teens). DC1 eats well, cooks and is really interested in food and trying new things. DC2 is autistic and has limited safe foods. We try them with new foods every so often but with no pressure.

Thank you for being so understanding. At ds's secondary school there was a pasta bar type thing. But they wouldn't allow ds just to have plain pasta, thy insisted he had a sauce. Also they wouldn't allow him to buy a portion of chips to go with his safe packed lunch (usually something like a philadelphia sandwich and cucumber sticks. They said he had to have a balanced meal. he could only have chips with one of their main courses even though they were priced separately.

I'm ND, so is my brother. We grew up in the 90s but it was an old fashioned way of living and it was very much a case of "eat what you're given". Some foods I truly hated and did have to force down as a child, sometimes with tears, however as an adult I eat most things and even now even like some of the foods I couldn't bear to eat as a child. I have come a long way with tolerating textures and there are only a few things now that I simply won't eat. I think if my parents had catered to chicken nuggets and chips to appease me it would have done me a huge disservice. I know this is not applicable to every ND, just wanted to share my experience

I am having trauma therapy and DBT. I used to be in OA, and might try again. As for self harm yeah I've tried all kinds, so I think that's a factor. Thanks v much for your kind response.

My daughter has ASD and has been clinically underweight since she was a baby. She didn't want milk. She refused as a 10 month old to drink it. She'd cry for hours but if I put a bottle in her mouth she would spit it out. We moved onto solids very quickly with support of a HV. If the food wasn't completely smooth then she would projectile vomit up the whole meal and refuse to eat for many hours. We saw paediatricians, dietitions, GPs and HVs and everyone confirmed there was no physical reason. We eventually flipped over to dry solids and since then she has really never eaten anything with puree texture. She refused to touch her own food. Every toddler puts things in their mouth - not mine!! She NEVER picked up a chip and put it in her mouth. I cried when she was 4 and picked up a biscuit - first time ever she touched food. She would only eat a biscuit if it was provided on a plate. Nothing to do with me, I'd eat off the floor - I am a grubber, she was weird!
She would not eat if the food didn't suit her and most of her issues are textural. She would go hungry. She dropped off the centile chart. We desperately tried for medical support to help but dieticians were hopeless... "Put cheese on it to increase calories" doesn't work if she won't eat it with cheese on. She was tired and got ill all the time and carried on significantly clinically underweight into school and then never ate lunch as she won't eat things that go in packed lunch and couldn't cope with school versions of even her favourite foods (e.g. spag bol / sausage). She remained signficantly clinically underweight until she moved to homeschooling last year in Yr 9. Now I make her 3 meals a day and she is finally growing (hugely!) and has finally reached the very very bottom of "healthy".

She doesn't eat McDonalds or chicken nuggets. She eats "normal" food but it has to be made the way I make it. She she'll eat pie, spag bol, sausage, steak, potatoes, peas, broccoli, roast dinner... Loads of things. But NOT unless they are made and presented the correct way. Do it wrong and she just won't eat.

It's been a hugely challenging journey for us and I cook every meal from scratch (no packets, no jar sauces, no ready meals). I even make bread so she can eat pittas.. I can guarantee you I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't the ONLY way to get her to eat enough food to be healthy.

My son and my nephew are both autistic and both have food allergies” issues”
my son as a restricted diet that goes in “waves” so he will have a safe food for several months and will eat pretty much that alone, with a few safe snacks added in. Then his main food choice will change to another alternative and he will just eat that one instead. So he might go from chicken nuggets ( he’s an adult but still exists on them) and that’s all he will eat, to plain pasta for a couple of months, then to ham sandwiches and then back to chicken nuggets for a few months. He has a couple of safe things he will eat if we go out- gammon and chips or fish and chips, but woe betide anyone who adds anything else to his plate!
my nephew has a slightly wider range of foods but is very specific about the type, so only Tesco tiger bread ( not from Morrisons or Sainsbury’s!) or only Asda chicken etc. And he really does know if it’s bought from the “ wrong” store, he insists it tastes different. My sister has tried “ tricking him” but it doesn’t work. If the recipe changes, he stops eating it and moves onto something else.

I spoke to the consultant psychologist about my son’s diet, he said just to go with it, that it was pointless trying to force him to eat something just because it was expected. So I don’t. Every now and again, he will try a new food , it either joins his safe list or is never eaten again!

That's a really great way of doing it!

I'd have loved your plain pasta. I remember going on Brownie camp as an extremely picky eater (undiagnosed autistic) and saying that I didn't like pizza. I was reassured that it was fine, that it was 'make your own pizza' and I could put whatever I wanted on it.

When they realised that my choice was going to be one or two toppings on a pizza base, because the foods I couldn't eat were cheese and tomato, I got a jam sandwich. 😆

You were doing sooooo well until your last 2 sentences! 😩.
Your post is a good example of how even SEND schools don’t understand all children with SEND/autism.

I think failure to thrive covered a lot of other things as well eg lactose and gluten intolerance etc.