Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

[warning: death, heartbreaking story] This is appalling. How could it have happened?

157 replies

TraumaQuestions · 21/07/2025 17:48

A dying woman called 999 and asked for an ambulance, giving her address. No ambulance was dispatched. Nobody checked up on her. Her profoundly disabled daughter, who depended on her totally, also died. Nobody noticed for weeks or months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2z36yzzdlo

Alphonsine Dijako Leuga and her daughter Loraine Choulla came to the UK in 2014 from Italy

Mum and daughter found dead at home months after 999 plea

Alphonsine Dijako Leuga and her daughter were found three months after the call, an inquest hears.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2z36yzzdlo

OP posts:
Middlechild3 · 22/07/2025 11:38

Crunchymum · 21/07/2025 18:11

I knew it was going to be this story. Read it on BBC news earlier and couldn't stop shaking my head in disbelief.

As a mother of a child with significant disabilities, and who will never live independently, this really strikes a chord with me.

I know the 999 call handler plays a huge part but who else was looking after these women? Where was their support network? What services were involved with care and support?

Sickening and heartbreaking (and by the sounds of it, ultimately avoidable)

Edited

I lost a mentally ill relative through slipping through all these what are supposed to be safety nets. My GP told me they call it the Swiss cheese effect, all the holes line up and they slip through. This poor lady and her daughters death will only be investigated because of the publicity. Most of the time there is a cover up, they'll mutter "lessons learned" bla blah but there is no accountability. Sadly it happens a lot with the vulnerable, only the odd story makes the headlines.

Soontobesingles · 22/07/2025 11:58

BellissimoGecko · 22/07/2025 06:36

My god, your poor sister. Could I ask, did she recover? How is she now?

She did recover thank you. She was tended to by an amazing team of Doctors at Kings College London and they managed to reattach and save her feet. She is obviously always going to have the impact of her injuries (lorry company paid compensation) but she is back to work, physically active and happy. It was a few years of intensive physio, therapy and surgery, but time has helped.x

BellissimoGecko · 22/07/2025 12:03

Soontobesingles · 22/07/2025 11:58

She did recover thank you. She was tended to by an amazing team of Doctors at Kings College London and they managed to reattach and save her feet. She is obviously always going to have the impact of her injuries (lorry company paid compensation) but she is back to work, physically active and happy. It was a few years of intensive physio, therapy and surgery, but time has helped.x

Edited

That’s amazing. I’m so pleased to hear that.

Allseeingallknowing · 22/07/2025 14:48

That call handler will be haunted by this forever!

GreenClock · 22/07/2025 16:32

I called an ambulance for my mother last autumn and it turned out ok but it did strike me how dim the initial call handler was tbh. Asked me the same thing twice. Asked me a question that I’d already covered earlier. Lots of ummmmms. No empathy. Maybe she was learning idk 🤷‍♀️

The woman who called me back from Triage was terrific though. As were the paramedics, needless to say.

I think that 999 handlers need to have confidence and gravitas, as well as empathy. If the role isn’t attracting enough of the right sort of candidates, maybe the powers that be need to mull over what they can do about it.

WaryCrow · 22/07/2025 16:40

I wonder how many of those scapegoating the call handler would be willing to do their job?

Or go and work in a hospital? Either as a minimum wage HCA or as a nurse on£32k with a £70k debt, after having worked for free to get the qualification?

No? Unreasonable to ask?

As pp’s have said the entire system is at breaking point. You wanted a minimum state, you wanted ‘highly productive’ staff paid the minimum to do far far too much.., well these are the natural consequences.

RIP Alphonsine and Loraine. There will be more.

musicalfrog · 22/07/2025 16:51

I wonder how many of those scapegoating the call handler would be willing to do their job?
Or go and work in a hospital? Either as a minimum wage HCA or as a nurse on£32k with a £70k debt, after having worked for free to get the qualification?
No? Unreasonable to ask?

Me @WaryCrow 🙋🏻‍♀️

Ficklebricks · 22/07/2025 16:57

Sorry if this has already been asked but what will happen to the call handler? I hope they can be brought to justice. It seems like criminal negligence in their role.

Redburnett · 22/07/2025 18:05

PermanentTemporary · 22/07/2025 11:04

I don’t think having better triage, so that the GP waiting room isn’t stuffed full of people infecting each other and waiting hours, is a bad thing. Yes GPs are seeing patients- lots of them. And I don’t understand why this case, where the GP was not involved at all, is suddenly causing GP criticism. If either the ambulance or the hospital had quickly notified the GP of what had happened, they are the one remaining service where it’s just possible there was enough continuity of care for someone to do something. I work in a community team for stroke survivors, and we email and call GP practices about concerning issues including not being able to get hold of people all the time, and the vast majority of the time they respond fast and effectively.

If you read the article it states that the GP was unable to contact her, so the GP was aware of the situation. The GP practice records should have shown that she was the sole carer for a disabled child. To ignore a patient in those circumstances because the phone is not answered is simply not acceptable - there is a duty of care, and I hope the GMC takes note. There clearly was GP involvement in the sense that they had reason to try and contact her, but they didn't bother to follow through.
As for triage forms leading to patients being seen, they don't at my surgery. Instead you get a phone call at a random time days later with no warning so it is often inconvenient to talk about your health if you are not at home. If the problem sounds serious you might be lucky to get a phone call sooner telling you to go to A&E. I stand by my statement that GPs are not actually seeing most patients, and it is a disgrace. I do not know how the GMC can condone their behaviour.

Psosugi · 22/07/2025 22:02

Further information -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y2nn10ye4o

YesHonestly · 23/07/2025 07:46

Psosugi · 22/07/2025 22:02

Well that certainly answers some questions.

SevernWonders · 23/07/2025 09:32

Psosugi · 22/07/2025 22:02

Oh gosh that is so sad that Alphonsine chose to withdraw from all support, especially as Loraine wanted to engage. Imagine living in a house with no heating or hot water too.

Confuuzed · 23/07/2025 11:47

That article is firmly blaming the mother, who is no longer here to defend herself. Its highly likely she has good reason to fear the involvement of social services. My interactions with my local authority in terms of my disabled child have been very negative so far. Can't trust them as far as you can throw them. They lie and blame parents while offering fuck all actual help.

Whether she declined help from social services or not, it doesn't make what happened to her ok.

KassandraOfSparta · 23/07/2025 12:03

Let's not start calling for blood and saying ridiculous things like the 999 operator has blood on their hands. Or making silly comments about them being "lovely women" - they may well have been, they may have been very unpleasant but unless you know them personally you don't know.

People working on 999 lines are under enormous pressure and get a LOT of time wasters. The caller wouldn't give her name and wouldn't say what language she spoke - there was obviously some sort of communication barrier. She just kept asking for an ambulance. They also tried to call the number back and didn't get an answer. 999 times out of 1000 when that sort of call comes in it is a timewaster or a hoax. The trick is spotting the 1 time when it isn't and it is clear that the SYSTEM has failed here, not the individual operator. Slinging around personal remarks or calling for them to be charged with manslaughter is just madness.

There is definitely a wider conversation which needs to take place about people who have no support network and who are off the radar or authorities. In an ideal world there would be joined up thinking between the hospital, the GP, social services and the Police so that someone missing a follow up appointment in these situations would be automatically flagged for a welfare check. Or that someone who has been discharged ringing 999 would automatically flag on the operator's computer that this person was in hospital 24 hours before. But to do that you would need to integrate all the systems together and a huge proportion of the population would be up in arms about data protection, the government having access to their information, misuse, a nanny state, Big Brother, hacking....

The NHS is not fit for purpose and the sooner the government stop trying to prop it up by slinging cash at it the better.

rainbowunicorn22 · 25/07/2025 17:00

It's disgusting, apart from the call handler and the hospital discharging her; where were her friends? neighbours? surely they must have known her circumstances, ie, looking after her daughter so surely if she was not seen around, had not put bins out, then why did someone not check on them? Years ago there would be postmen, milkmen etc would keep an eye open on people and i am sure many lives were saved by them

KassandraOfSparta · 25/07/2025 18:08

rainbowunicorn22 · 25/07/2025 17:00

It's disgusting, apart from the call handler and the hospital discharging her; where were her friends? neighbours? surely they must have known her circumstances, ie, looking after her daughter so surely if she was not seen around, had not put bins out, then why did someone not check on them? Years ago there would be postmen, milkmen etc would keep an eye open on people and i am sure many lives were saved by them

From the second article linked - she was actively disengaging from society and refusing help/assistance.

It's really sad for sure but not simplistic.

MemorableTrenchcoat · 26/07/2025 10:20

Confuuzed · 23/07/2025 11:47

That article is firmly blaming the mother, who is no longer here to defend herself. Its highly likely she has good reason to fear the involvement of social services. My interactions with my local authority in terms of my disabled child have been very negative so far. Can't trust them as far as you can throw them. They lie and blame parents while offering fuck all actual help.

Whether she declined help from social services or not, it doesn't make what happened to her ok.

Did she have good reason to refuse the council/energy company access to her home to restore the gas supply? It may be that this decision condemned them both to death.

KassandraOfSparta · 26/07/2025 12:13

She absolutely should have been "fearing the involvement of social services" as she had a disabled daughter who she was keeping out of school, in a house which had no heating and hot water.

Iamtarticus · 26/07/2025 13:28

Surely the older sister would have checked in on them?

YesHonestly · 26/07/2025 13:49

Iamtarticus · 26/07/2025 13:28

Surely the older sister would have checked in on them?

It has been reported that her relationship broke down with her mother some time ago.

Toddlerteaplease · 26/07/2025 15:22

nocoolnamesleft · 21/07/2025 18:28

I suspect "pragmatic discharge" means "she was so desperately worried about her daughter that no power on this earth could have stopped her leaving the hospital, and at least if we sort of discharge her we can give her some high dose oral antibiotics, but if she takes her own discharge we can't". But yes, one has to suspect that pretty soon after that 999 call she was in no fit state to make another call, and if her daughter was completely dependent upon her...that ending is so grim it doesn't bear thinking about.

I live very close to where they lived. I believe that is exactly the reason they discharged her. The hospital did try to contact her u believe but got no reply. I also understand that they refused help from all agencies. I was surprised to discover that she had another daughter. Even if she wasn’t close to her mum, it’s surprising that she had no contact with her sister. As she claims they were close.

Toddlerteaplease · 26/07/2025 18:09

It was also commented on by the local news that there were no flowers outside the house. Because no one in the community knew them.

Toddlerteaplease · 26/07/2025 18:10

The house is still empty.

KingscoteStaff · 26/07/2025 18:22

Have there been any details of Loraine's dad?