Should society help people make better choices of life partners?

[Mawg]

I have heard often that statistically the ideal environment for children to grow up is with two parents who are happily married/partnered. I just googled this and with a brief flick through it seems to be correct.

I am NOT dissing single parent families or any other setups, which are often fab. But if we talking society-level statistics, it seems that research shows that children raised in happy partnerships are more likely to have better:

• emotional health
• mental health
• physical health
• social skills
• academic outcomes
• less likely to be involved in crime

Obviously once you are in an unhappy marriage, it is better for you and the children to leave it. So the key is to try to avoid getting into unhappy marriages in the first place.

It seems to me that this is a case of trying to break the cycle. Children raised in homes where good relationships are modelled are more likely to have good relationships themselves, and then their children are more likely to experience the above benefits in turn.

It is certainly in society's interest to try to help with this; potentially it could result in a reduction in mental and physical health issues, maintain a more resilient workforce, reduce domestic violence, crime, and so on.

I appreciate that life events happen and people change, and also that there are some very sneaky people who really could trick the most vigilant of people into believing they are decent, but there is nothing that can be done about these. But for marriages where there were signs of incompatibility early on in the dating stage... how does society help people learn to recognise them? Teach in schools I suppose, since the whole point is that the parents of those who need it most often don't know it themselves. I know schools have plenty to do, but to an individual child knowing how to pick a good life partner is far more useful than learning trigonometry for the third time. I can't think of a single academic subject which is more important than this. Yes it would cost money, but there's potentially an enormous pay off in the future.

Even giving all the school leavers a flipping leaflet would be better than nothing!

Stuff like...
Do they share your life goals/major beliefs/morals?
Are they kind to people who are of 'lower status' eg a waitress who made a mistake?
Do they handle stressful situations and disagreements without insulting people or shouting?
Do you have the same ideas about money - spending it and sharing finances ?
Do they put others first?
Do they communicate effectively over any issues in the relationship?

If you were in an unhappy marriage, how do you think society could have helped equip you to recognise the signs early on and give you the tools to leave the relationship before it got serious?

Sorry that's very rambling. TDLR: should society help people make better choices re life partners, to lead to a healthier society overall?

I absolutely think that society can play a role in making abusive/toxic relationships less common. But it's not about teaching in schools (although that might be part of it). it's a wholesale shift in thinking that's needed.

When men are penalised in respect of their reptuation and prospects for abandoning children, we might get a bit closer.

When expectatoins for men and women in respect of chldcare are more level, we might get a bit closer.

When women's labour in the workforce and at home is more accurately rewarded and appreciated, we might get a bit closer.

When "boys will be boys" is not considered a legitimate reason for poor behaviour, we might get a bit closer.

When girls who voice that they aren't happy about their partners' behaviour aren't told, "that's just how he is" or "you should cut him some slack", we might get a bit closer.

@MageQueen I totally agree. I think that kind of societal change takes far longer to happen than altering what/how is taught in schools or starting public health campaigns akin to the stop smoking campaigns. But yes, you're right that misogyny is probably key, as it is with so many things. I don't know what the government can do to tackle the specific points you mention though unfortunately.

It's banning something reasonably clear cut which is already delineated and limited in some arenas. Whereas you're proposing some kind of limitations on a free press?

Some would say pornography is also an element of free press. The media only supply what there is a demand for, we watch shitty depictions of relationships that portray relationship values we say we don’t want, let’s deal with that double standard before blaming schools for lack of teaching.

Well, sociery and government are often different but there are some things they coudl do.

Broad based campaigns that highlight the inequalities and why men should step up.

Direct and immediate consequences for men who don't meet their obligations to their children - CMS has teeth but NEVER uses them, so that could be a start.

A broad based education campaign and/or suport for research that shows how boys and girls are treated differently from day 1, and what that potentially means (vs the many many many research reports and campaigns on how WOMEN fuck things up eg by being "stressed" when pregnant or daring to drink more than a half glass of wine a year during their "fertile" years). Did you jknow that girls get less pocket money than boys, on average?

better parental leave policies across the board.

Funding and tax breaks for companies that actually meet gender criteria.

Campaigns to encourage men to step up and stop silently allowing poor behaviour in their mates (I think there was a bit of a half hearted attempt on this one).

When you choose a partner and have dc with them, as far as you know at the time, they are lovely and will make a great life partner and parent. Then they go and ruin it all by having an affair with someone else, or becoming abusive towards you or the dc in some way.

At the outset of a relationship, how is anyone to know that their partner will do this in the future? Nobody is equipped with a crystal ball.

Perhaps society would be better concentrating its efforts on getting people to be faithful and not being an abuser.

When you choose a partner and have dc with them, as far as you know at the time, they are lovely and will make a great life partner and parent.

Well not always, there are often signs - the partner who already has two kids with two different people, that they don’t see or contribute towards financially, the partner who has a string of psycho exes, the partner who is just a bit controlling, the partner that expects the woman to cover her own mat leave costs. Of course it’s always going to be different “this time”, except it never is.

Yes I know that, but the entire premise of the OP appears to be apportioning the blame for 'broken homes' on the people (overwhelmingly female) who end up, often quite literally, holding the baby, and the OP is holding them to account for having made a poor choice in a partner.

How about blaming the feckless, abusive, cheating partners instead? They are the ones who are responsible for the relationship breaking down, after all.

I think women in general could do much better at not ignoring the red flags, men in general could do much better at not being arseholes.

Girls get less pocket money. But do they get more stuff just bought for them? Anyone know?

Such a great question.
I’ve also found myself wondering, should the community step in when you see two otherwise kind, decent people slowly destroying each other in a relationship that clearly isn’t working anymore?

I very clearly did not blame the person left holding the baby, and did not mention men/women at all. I think it is the responsibility of both parties to make sure they are in a relationship with the right person if they intend to have children with them (or do not take steps to prevent conceiving).

Of course the people exhibiting toxic behaviour are the ones to blame. But why do they behave like that? I suggest a good part of it in many cases might be a lack of a good relationship model in their family when they grew up. Break the cycle = create more people who are decent at relationships.

So how would you suggest helping people who have had no role models to choose suitable partners? If your young friend Jim was hurtling into a car crash relationship and didn't seem to see the red flags, would you gently tell him or just shrug your shoulders? Assuming you'd talk to him about it, why wouldn't you want someone somewhere to talk to all the young Jims (and Janes) of the world?

@Mawg In years gone by it would have been a minister of religion who spoke from the pulpit to all the young Jims and Janes. Doesn't happen now though - at least not for most people.

Whether society as a whole should be responsible, that is another matter, and the Government certainly can't spend even more taxpayers' money on such an initiative. Schools have neither the funding nor the time to cram any more into the National Curriculum either. Perhaps it should be the parents and other adult family members who should instil good values into young people. But to be honest, the young people who need the guidance the most are the least likely to get it from their family.

Sorry OP, but I find your post quite naive and, frankly, a bit ignorant.
I was in a long-term relationship for over ten years. We got married and had two children. For most of that time, my ex was a wonderful man. Of course, he had faults, as we all do, but overall, I was happy. Then, while I was pregnant, he walked out on me. He ended our relationship via a text message and never spoke to me about it after. I had the rug pulled from my feet.
What followed was years of bullying and manipulation on his part, mostly aimed at avoiding financial responsibility and getting his own way. I had no control over his choices, and I’m certainly not responsible for how he decided to treat me or his children. I don’t know what changed in him, and no amount of preparation or schooling could have helped me predict or manage that shift in personality.

Yes, a perfect household would ideally have two loving, supportive parents. I often wish I had someone to help share the emotional load, to co-parent with, to lean on during the hard moments. But relationships evolve, people change, and life doesn’t always play out as we hoped. Nobody should feel pressured to stay in, or enter, a relationship just because it’s seen as the ‘ideal’ or because of societal expectations.

Supporting relationships is important, absolutely. But your post overlooks the complexity of real life. It comes across as dismissive of people who didn’t choose to be single parents or whose relationships didn’t go to plan, despite their best efforts.

Assuming you'd talk to him about it, why wouldn't you want someone somewhere to talk to all the young Jims (and Janes) of the world?

Someone somewhere is, on social media, mainstream tv, online, and they’re giving messages that relationships are disposable, girls like being abused in the name of sex, men need to reclaim their power etc etc. Nothing schools have to say will be louder than those messages - it needs to be taught from the cradle, talked about openly in homes by parents, who need to also model safety and self respect in their own relationships.

I think in the absence of personal context, every woman knows it’s not okay to be hit by your partner. However, there are many women that once they “love” the man who hit them, they rationalise it some way or other: it’s their fault, it was just once, they give as good as they get, their partner will change…

It doesn’t matter how much you KNOW what a healthy relationship is, if you don’t have the support/self esteem/role modelled healthy relationships, then people will still make bad choices.

I’m lucky enough that I have enough support, self confidence and financial independence that I’ve been able to leave boyfriends I’ve loved because I know they don’t have the same life goals as me, and I’ve found a husband who I love and is a true partner working to the same goals. But I don’t understand the privilege I’ve had to be able to make that decision.

@autumngirl714 I was very careful not to say any of the things you accuse me of. I don't believe any of them, so I did not say them. People are not responsible for other people's behaviour. And nobody can foresee a total and completely unheralded personality change. But those two things don't change the fact that it is in the interests of an individual to make a good choice about a life partner.

@AndImBrit I agree that there is privilege in having the tools to detect and act to end a bad relationship. The point is how do we extend that privilege to people not lucky enough to learn it growing up. How can society teach them what they should have learnt from their families (who through no fault of their own could not teach them).

What do you mean by "more stuff just bought for them"?

I can easily imagine more MONEY is spent on them due to the "pink" tax? DS likes The Ordinary and Simple products. DD likes Byoma. There's a difference in price so if I'm buying facewash, DS' costs £7 and DD's costs £11.

Anecdotally, DS' friends mums and I laugh that while we buy the boys far FEWER clothes because they just wear the same 3 t-shirts and trackies on rotation, it's all Nike and Hoodrich while the girls will happily buy 10 x £3 Primark t-shirts to have options.

But I'm not sure what you mean otherwise? Admittedly, I'm not a good exampple as I've been very carefully ensuring my DC get similar pocket money.

To build better relationships requires society to change rather than being 'taught' in schools.
Children being brought up in secure relationships with plenty of give and take, respect for each other, genuine caring.....all models for children to follow when they grow up and have relationships of their own.

Respect between adults so that all types of partner are valued for themselves and supported in return.

Individuals being prepared to take responsibility, who are not lazy, who will step up and say sorry for mistakes, then learn to do better and move on without bitterness towards others.

All this contributes to good relationships and the learning starts well before school starts to teach "what to look out for".....but it's also a utopia which doesn't seem to exist in some many areas of human existence.

@Mawg no I don't agree with you. I think you're overlooking real life and the post comes across quite insensitive to a person like me, who has been forced into a situation you're describing as unhealthy.

Also, you can't start a thread asking for opinions and then become defensive, using language like "accusing" when someone engages in your conversation with a different opinion. If you just want likeminded to people to discuss, that's fine. But maybe just point that out.

I’m not sure how to teach it, but I do think that anyone considering DC and/or marriage should have a conversation about where they want to live, how many/any DC, what they’re hoping for in terms of jobs/careers long term, whether they want pets, attitudes to money (spend/save balance, holidays etc) and whatever else is important to them (eg non negotiable attendance at football matches or an annual trip away with friends).

I certainly did, and it threw up areas of disagreement that we talked through and resolved. But I had the example of a very forthright, emotionally intelligent mum who made it clear that’s what I should do
before taking a big step like marriage.

This is quite a stretch from the original post.

I just... I don't mean to be rude but most of the teachers I had were fairly useless and dim. Not more than most of us are, particularly, but not shining lights of moral insight. (And one or two were wonderful, but really those were rare) But...have you met teachers? Why would you put this kind of leadership in their hands? Why teachers?

Personally I would not be signing over the emotional development of my child to a random woman who is already failing to inspire them in art, literature, and mathematics, all profoundly wonderful experiences of the human condition which should need little assistance.To learn about love, securely and wisely, we must be loved and love back. That's not for teachers. It's not their job to love our children.

That’s kind of what I mean. Maybe boys get a bigger allowance because we don’t just buy them extras - we force them into money management earlier instead. Whereas we seem to like buying clothes for girls, getting them hair accessories, etc.

There’s also the pink tax - but I think adults are more willing (conditioned?) to fork out when a girl wants something, whereas a boy would be more likely told to ‘save up for it then’.

Someone’s probably already done a study on it.

I believe we could be doing more to build up resilience and self confidence in young people - and that's not the me-centric attitude - more about recognising that you do have choices and there are consequences to making the wrong choices. And also some things you have to work at. I don't think that's all relationship related; it's about finances and work and locations and opportunities - life really.

Too many kids get in with the wrong crowd, into toxic relationships, fail at school, end up in dark places because they lack self worth and confidence.

Not sure school is the right place for that, but if parents aren't doing it, where else?