BBC Documentary - How safe are our nurseries?

[Butterkubb]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0029vnd

I’ve worked in two ‘outstanding’ nurseries : inadequate staff ratios and hiding the true situation from inspectors - are commonplace. We had a serious choking incident last term and staff ratios were completely wrong at the time it happened.

The OFTED lady being interviewed seemed slightly oblivious to the fact that schools/nurseries do this, and blamed funding?

I worked at a Ofsted rated ‘good’ nursery and was there for 5 years, in that time there was not one incident of anything bad happening / Ratios not adhered to etc

We were in London and had a 2 year wait list, parents put their babies name down before they were even pregnant

@PoopingAllTheWay

My current situation is that I’m looking after a group of 2 year olds. I have a qualification, but my contract/pay is no different to two other adults that I work with who are not qualified. It’s lunchtime cover.

I believe the ratio is 1:5, and half of the adults must be qualified.

I do tend to take charge more - but the staff on lunch break really don’t like me for it.
E.g a crying child fell asleep on me yesterday, so I let him sleep. I was told not to let him sleep again - but if that means I can’t comfort him, then I’m not going to let him cry. I’ll speak to someone about it today.

@Butterkubbtbf I’ve seen threads on here from parents really cross that their child has been “allowed” to sleep too much at nursery and how they’ve spoken to staff about it. Generally they are told they’re being unreasonable, but I don’t think it’s impossible that the nursery you’re at has had this issue with parents getting cross at staff over sleep at nursery. Not saying they’re right to put a stop to it, but I imagine an unreasonable parent can put them in a difficult position.

I’m amazed that anyone would routinely wake up a sleepy baby. People are so weird

Im sure there are threads on here with parents cracking up that their child has been napping at nursery when it wasn’t in the routine and it’s messed up the sleeping pattern at home.

The conversation seems to have veered off about sleep - my child has a one hour sleep limit at nursery because she generally won’t sleep until after lunch and as she needs seven hours between waking and bed she often goes to bed at 9. Generally she won’t sleep longer than an hour anyway but nursery were fine setting a limit as given most of the staff are parents they know how long naps can affect overnight sleep

It is quite common that ratios are stretched or not quite adhered to, especially at lunch times and the beginning and end of the day.

You've got to remember too that ratios can be done across the whole setting rather than just in the room - so while you might be alone with 10 two year olds, actually there are 3 staff in another room settling 10 children to sleep so over the two the ratios are legal.

The thing with a child sleeping on you is - it might disrupt the routine of the child/room, parents might not want the child to sleep, and having one member of staff holding a child isn't a good use of resources.

Nurseries aren't home, children can't just sleep or eat whenever they want even though that seems nice. Routines and staffing need to be accounted for.

@homeedmam

The situation was that the child was really upset - and I’d rather comfort him than leave him to cry. In the comforting he fell asleep, but it just felt like the ‘right’ thing to do.

I’ve seen other members of staff let him sleep directly after lunch when he has been upset - so I followed what I’d seen.

I know the ideal scenario is to sleep when they all sleep, but I made an exception as it was first day back/he was very upset/only just turned 2.
Then he slept, he didn’t need 1:1 so it was actually easier to look after the others.
The problem is, I don’t know the routine, or specifics for individual children as I am only cover. I did follow what I had seen done before.
I have to sometimes use my best judgement.

Nursery is pretty grim for under 3s really. I think it’s lovely you comforted the toddler and let them sleep on you, which is what should be done at that age.

How are those ratio’s legal?

If anyone is in a room with Ten 2 year olds. Regardless if the ratios are ok elsewhere, its still unsafe and can be closed down by ofsted
That extra staff member has to be with the staff that is on their own
If this is your nursery, they are putting the children at risk

I did my NNEB qualification, finishing it in 1990. During my placement in a nursery I saw children tied to chairs, children told if they didn’t stop crying then they be put in a cot in the dark, babies in headlocks and then metal spoons being forced into their mouths so they’d eat. It was reported including to my college tutor and I was told to keep quiet or I would be forced off the course. I have always said no child of mine would be put in a nursery, you never know what happens behind closed doors. The same nursery lost a child years back and didn’t notice for over an hour. They got away with that too and 35 years after I reported concerns they are still in business, apparently a church nursery would never hurt a child. Ofsted inspections should be unannounced, the same for schools and colleges, then you see what the place is really like and inspectors need to be able to access all areas

@Nik23

That is terrible. I looked into a similar documentary ‘A Breach of Trust’ about three nurseries in Ireland.
They talked about how the ethos should be child centred rather than very young children being corralled - which gives me more confidence that I did the right thing.
But I often feel like a minority voice.
There seems to be a mentality of the staff member who is loudest, ‘scariest’ or more aggressive being the leader. If you challenge, then that leader can turn others and their followers against you.
Your job is important, and you want to be seen as part of a team - and that senior management will back you - and not vilify for rocking the boat.
In the BBC documentary, I didn’t agree with the OFSTED lady and her stance that ‘we are underfunded so nothing can be done’. I think prioritising certain - very revealing - material such as CCTV footage could be done within an inspection framework.

I also think nursery staff knowing that CCTV could be checked by an inspector - would hopefully prevent some shocking behaviour.

I think it is well known that not all nurseries are good, just the same as we know that not all parents are good. Some nurseries are excellent though, as are some parents.

We absolutely need to improve poor nurseries and that includes people working in poor nurseries to do their jobs and report safeguarding concerns instead of just keeping quiet.

I saw nothing too untoward in my 8 year nursery career many years ago. Yeah some lazy staff, crap management sitting in an office etc. However the ratio thing, when all the children were asleep staff went on breaks ( staggered) and one person left in the room watching them sleep ( or filling in planning, paperwork etc) this could be for 15 mins/half an hour way out of ratio.

I remember being alone with the whole pre school room 30 ish kids on the carpet singing and stories etc. While breaks were on. It was all very normal. I was a good nursery nurse and luckily managed children back then very well. I was young and knew no different but it was the same in both nurseries i worked in. Even as room leader to multiple rooms with years experience. i was on a pittance.

I think it’s sad that people’s children are not thought more of, that the staff are not thought more of and paid accordingly to their skills and training, qualifications etc. Some managers are great some want an easy life. If it was properly paid it would probably attract more of the better practitioners. Who do the job for the right reasons. Ofsted is not fit for purpose either.

It's seen as an easy job to some when it’s not.It’s the hardest i ever had and i work in healthcare now.

I work for a outstanding nursery.
we don’t use agency staff, operate above ratio in every room.
the managers are not counted on numbers.’every member of staff is fully first aid trained.
we have never had any serious incidents and parents wishes are followed.
The children are happy and it is a safe happy place to work

I looked at 7 nurseries for my first DC and I found them all grim, understaffed (and very young and bored looking staff) and unhygienic. Both my DC went to childminders until age 3 and then pre-school. We never had extended bouts of sicknesses, sure they were sometimes sick here and there but not weeks of it.
I liked that they were looked after in a “home” environment by experienced women. Having said that it’s also hard to find a great childminder especially if you have small children.

The choking incident that occurred - no qualified member or first aid trained member of staff was immediately available. It happened so quickly that an untrained, unqualified person had to take immediate action. She luckily did the right thing - did back slaps and the food item was coughed up.

There were 2 members of unqualified staff to about 40 : 3 and 4 year olds. Qualified members of staff were in another room and the setting does say ‘call on us if you need us, we are in the next room’ - but I personally think you can’t count that towards ratios - especially in a situation like that.
The first aid qualified person had actually left the room next door when the incident occurred and couldn’t be quickly found. Immediate action had to be taken to save the child’s life.

I was an apprentice 96/97, while i learned i wasn’t in numbers, couldn’t have a key group, even tell parents about their day. I was very hands on and did all the crap jobs too. But it gave me a proper training and time to learn my role, observe etc. I was 16.

When it was brought in a few years later than apprentices/unqualified could have key groups, be counted in ratio, basically work as a qualified nursery nurse. It was always going to be cost cutting that nurseries employed so many that they could get away with. I didn’t agree with it then and still think it was a mistake. Yes i’m sure there are great unqualified staff but it does everyone a disservice. Nurseries get desperate for staff and take on people that really don’t give a shit.

Although TBH, I’d have far more confidence in this particular untrained member of staff looking after my child. She is very alert and hands on - the child was silent choking in a busy hall and she quickly noticed.
Many of the trained members of staff are not alert, chatting or decide to take a toilet break/do an extra long nappy change when they are needed the most.

I don't think CCTV makes a difference to be honest - the case with the baby being killed was all on CCTV, and when reviewing it they found another staff member abusing children.
CCTV is a false sense of security.

How can I watch this show?

I think it would make a difference. If staff are told that part of the inspection would involve checking through CCTV - there is no way that an inspector would accept the sort of a language and treatment that was the reality of that setting. If that had been part of the inspection, that nursery worker should and would have been sacked before something dreadful happened. Rather than receiving a ‘good’ rating.

@homeedmam

@LangoLanguage

Here :

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0029vnd

My children went to a wonderful nursery, but when I was looking for a nursery for my first born, I came across mostly places and people I would not leave them with. The nursery I did choose was very good and my children very happy there and close to their key workers. I had much more concern when especially my youngest started reception at only 4 years old. The ratio there was crazy and he hated it for years and really missed nursery.