Fellow insomniacs.......I need a conflab.

[Tolkienista]

I'm 66 and I've had sleeping issues for decades.
I just live with it.
Generally I'm ok getting to sleep, it's the waking at 3 am that I have issues with.

Anyway, last night I went to bed with a million things on my mind and worries, i didn't get to sleep until probably close to 2am. Just couldn't switch off.
Then I awoke around 5.15am and haven't been able to get back to sleep.

I've just accepted it and I'm not going to beat myself up about it.
I'm not in pain, I'm warm and cosy in bed and I'll just put it behind me and move on.

So, my fellow Mumsnet insomniacs how do you deal with all the articles that tell me my health is going to be affected by my poor sleep patterns.
I'm in good health. Haven't been to a doctor for years. I eat well, exercise regularly, I'm fit/active and a size 10.
But insomnia is an issue & I do have concerns about it long term.
However, my mum is 96 and she has exactly the same experience as me with sleep and like me has had it for decades.

Please share your experience.
I'm all ears!

I would say it's a fairly common problem. Often related to stress/ anxiety etc. but also some people just really struggle with poor sleep. I think lots of people don't come to see us though as there's not loads we can do. Most people know sleeping pills are a bad idea in the longer term so the mainstay of treatment has always been sleep hygiene (which I'm sure you've tried!) I also recommend Sleepio which is a sleep CBT app. The best evidence is for sleep CBT over any medications.
Not sure about the ratio of male to female overall. Definitely an issue in the perimenopause. Hopefully can be improved with HRT.

Also a member of the 3am club here. Have heard too that sleep CBT is the best method in terms of clinical trial evidence. Suspect they would tell me all the 'sleep hygeine' stuff tho which i do.

@UnchainMeSister but which melatonin - so many - and so cheap on that site, makes me suspicious ha ha.

I use the antihistamines, a wool or feather duvet, excercise (being physically exhausted tho my body still fights it). Zopiclone works but GPs v reluctant and makes one groggy.

Another thing I try is change of scene - move to the spare room, or go and get a tea.

I also came across the practice of ‘first sleep and second sleep’ where our mediaeval ancestors would routinely get up for a couple of hours and eat, do stuff, even go visiting, before their second sleep!

So perhaps I should go and knock on the neighbours’ door at 3am 🤣🤣

Probably best to stick with the spare bed…

I have had insomnia in the past but currently sleep really well. I started taking cetirizine at night for itchy skin and found I slept much better. I always have a shower before bed, it's relaxing and being clean helps me sleep. I listen to audio books on YouTube especially when my mind is racing. There are a lot of PG Wodehouse stories on there at the moment. I always fall asleep. I think listening to a story helps to switch off the mental chatter. I use one earbud to listen as I lie on my side. c

I have lived with insomnia for around twenty years now, I am 64. I used to get very upset, lying awake every night, fixating on how little of the night was left before I would have to get up for work & imagining everyone else in the world sleeping soundly and waking refreshed.
I think I have tried everything that has ever been suggested, from aromatherapy to zen meditation, mostly without success. The things that have helped to some degree, are a good quality magnesium glycinate supplement, Montmorency cherry supplements & wild lettuce supplements. A friend recommended Phenergan, an antihistamine & whilst this does work, I read about the effects of taking them long term and was concerned enough to resist. I was also recommended Kirkland sleep aid but this is also an antihistamine & far from natural. The thing that worried me most of all is the research into antihistamines being linked with an increased risk of developing dementia and harm to brain health. The most helpful thing for me, was learning to accept that insomnia was beyond my control and instead of focusing on it and constantly feeding my anxiety and fear, beginning to find ways to make being awake at night more pleasurable. I bought a small white noise machine, that has lots of different sounds to choose from, including the sea, a river, rain, as well as actual white noise. The brand is X-SENSE and it can be set to play for different lengths of time. I also have a pile of books by my bed that I can dip in and out of if I have been awake for too long. I also find the Bach Rescue remedy night drops or spray remedy helpful, for calming racing thoughts. Finally, it helps me to have a notebook or a journal by my bed, to jot down anything that is on my mind, that I want to remember, then I can let it go.
You are not alone OP and as previous posters have said it may be true that we don't all need to aspire to eight solid hours and we can still be healthy and happy.

I avoid those articles now because they're too depressing. I have delayed sleep phase syndrome, I'm in my fifties and it's not an exaggeration to say it's really messed up my life (career-wise in particular). I've only really ever had (partial) relief in the past few years from melatonin, which I had to have prescribed by a sleep consultant which I think is just bonkers. As you said OP, the ill effects of too little sleep are amply documented, so unless it's about cost (in which case I'm not sure why they don't just approve it as a supplement) it's completely beyond me why it's so tightly regulated here. It's available from health food shops in other countries. 🤔

If it's tightly controlled due to any possible side effects that anyone knows of, I am of course open to being corrected on this, but I wasn't told of any so it just really puzzles me. And annoys me, knowing as I do how chronic sleeplessness can wreck a person's life as well as shortening it.

I have a very similar pattern to you - waking in the middle of the night and not getting back to sleep. The ONLY thing that’s helped me is magnesium lotion from Boots. I rub it on my shoulders and neck when I wake up and it gets me back to sleep

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieval-habit-of-biphasic-sleep

@SoScarletItWas yes- biphasic sleep! Seems like it was normal and maybe our expectation of having 8 hours sleep all at once is the problem.

I like the podcast "Nothing Much Happens" for getting to sleep/ back to sleep.

I get the ChronoDorm Sleep Melatonin from there. It's definitely legitimate - I've ordered from there a couple of times now. It is cheap but the delivery fee is not!

Yes, I get to sleep great on zopiclone, but I wake up feeling awful. I prefer less, more restful sleep. But I still have the occasional zolpidem when I need to break a cycle of being too exhausted to sleep.

Another one here. No problem going to sleep then awake at around 3:50am and that’s it. Cannot go back to sleep or nap any other time of day. I’ve tried A LOT of things, the Kirkland Sleep Aid make me feel horrendous the next day. I take Magnesium but it doesn’t help, I rub Magnesium butter on my feet and I think that helps a bit. I take drowsy antihistamines a couple of times a week which do work and weirdly ibuprofen helps me too.
However it worries me that I take medication and I am worried about the effect of lack of sleep is having on me. I feel I’ve aged a lot (mid 50’s) and have become quite forgetful which is worrying me. My GP has said it’s anxiety but I have put off any prescription medication up to now, maybe that’s my next step. The best sleep I’ve had in about 15 years was when I had shingles and was prescribed Amitryptline, it was wonderful!
moan over!

forgot to say the best advice I have had on here was to go to bed at 9pm - tedious but I get more of the deep sleep that way. Which I think is the stuff with the most health use.

That’s it, @Allthesnowallthetime!

Oh @Summerhillsquare you just reminded me of a saying that ‘an hour before midnight is worth two after’ or somesuch - I cling to this when I’ve had good deep sleep from about 10 or 11 and the 3am PING AWAKE happens.

Quality over quantity for clothes and food - maybe it applies to sleep too?!

Thanks @ThirstyMeeples for answering all my questions in detail, that's really helpful.
Looking back on my poor sleep last night, I think it was partly due to over consumption of tea.
I had visitors round in the evening and I normally go decaffeinated but not last night. I drank too much.

I'm definitely going to look into Sleepio & I agree (myself included) that I don't want to touch sleeping pills at all.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Very good advice.....so much of it too.
As I said in my original post, I have accepted it, there's no point in repeatedly mithering over something that has so much of our nation in it's grip.

Thanks for posting your extensive experience.

Definitely no tea in the evening! I drink redbush tea after 4pm and only have one coffee a day in the morning.

Are you me???

Antihistamine and magnesium helps me.

To those of you who wake at 3am, do you take the magnesium or whatever potion you prefer when you wake up, or before you go to sleep?

I ask this because I cracked it for myself anyway. I used to take the magnesium etc. just before I got into bed. It didn't help the 3am wakening. So I stopped taking it at bedtime (since I would drop off then naturally) but took it when I woke at the dreaded witching hour. It worked like a dream.

I have the following potion by my bed for if/when I wake up -

small glass of water
Fizzy magnesium tablet or the powder from the opened up capsule
Fizzy multivitamin (Aldi dupe is great) which also has magnesium.
Knock it back and 8 times out of ten it works great.

On the rare enough occasions where I find it's not working I'll take just one fizzy paracetemol (500mgs). That does the trick on top of the stuff above on a bad night. Note - I only take the paracetemol rarely, maybe once a week or so and the max daily dose is around 3000 mgs a day (6 tablets x500mg). I just take one 500mg.

I hope you all find the holy grail. I suppose everyone is different, and what works for one won't work for another. But onwards and upwards.

I also have this.

Things that help, getting up and going to the loo straight away rather than argue with myself that it will wake me up more. Just go.

I tell myself that even if I’m awake, I’m laid down, resting, it’s going to be better for me, even if I’m not sleeping.

not looking at my phone.

counting backwards from 100.

I also had EMDR therapy a while ago and I had to visualise a safe place. Mine was a meadow. So it helps me to think of that. Or the sea - the waves crashing against the shore.

mine is overactive brain so these things do help, but aren’t foolproof.

Wow, I literally could have written your post. Honestly that's me in a paragraph. The number of times I've lain there thinking I need the toilet, but I'll hold on......big mistake.
Counting back from a 100 too, do that often.
I'm getting solace from the fact that we're all in this together.

@vandelle great advice, thank you for taking the time to outline your very precise routine.

Morning, fellow insomniacs! Last night wasn’t actually too bad, and I think this thread helped that. Woke up multiple times, but told myself:

I’m still resting
This won’t actually kill me
I’m warm, comfortable
Others are experiencing this and understand
The clocks are going forward and so it won’t seem so early when I actually get up!

So a sincere thank you.

I wake at 3am usually though read this before bed and oddly slept really well! Will have to read again this evening...

This is me too! I seem to wake 2 hours after sleeping and again 2 hours later. And awake for an hour each time. Interested to hear all these experiences.

mine is back pain related. Although now that is under control it psychological but I am heavily medicated! It’s so stressful at the moment. Generally the day I don’t feel tired but if i sit to watch TV I will fall asleep any time after 7.30. I seem to spend a long time in bed and sleep very little. When I wake up I have the same urge to go the loo which I no can’t work out if is real or imagined. I need to try the getting up and going straight away. I’m seeing the GP monthly for my back at the moment trialling new medications. He says that sleep medications make you feel drowsy but don’t always help with waking up. I wondered if I had sleep apnoea.

I’m also 45! I exercise, keep active in the home annd garden, eat well and have a fun life. I have a stressful job and a new house to renovate. I’ve lost weight on Mounjaro- could that be a cause?

i have tried magnesium tablets and melatonin and neither seem to work. I did have some night nurse earlier in the year for a bad cold and that knocked me out so I may try phenegren.

when I am awake, I tell myself I’m warm and cosy and safe and the pain is gone. Inevitably I pick up my phone and start doom scrolling and this is the worst. I moved into the spare room and I won’t do this if I was in white DH but the room isn’t as nice (bed too soft and curtains to light)
holiday next week - so this will be a good break in the cycle. No phone at night and also a cruise so I will be rocked to sleep!

I make a lot of alphabet lists (names, fruit, places… any other ideas!)

I’m desperate for a whole night of sleep I’ve had three this year.