Adolescence

[Lalalallalalala]

I just feel like I need to talk about this programme.

I am almost finished , don’t know if I can carry on. I’ve done a lot of training about Incels due to my job and I’ve always found it very scary and think it’s something that young boys could be so easily drawn in to. I hope this opens up lots of conversations .

I also found it a hard watch as my son is almost the same age as Jamie. I can’t imagine how it would feel as a parent . In cases like this we always - obviously - think of the victim and their family . But , no one thinks of the family of the murderer. The only way I could think of it is - if you were ever that parent - you lose your child , but no one cares . You aren’t allowed to be sad , people would say “ good riddance , the world’s a better place “ . Because my son is the same age I kept looking at Jamie and imagining it as if it was my son - watching him have to be strip searched , seeing him locked away and you can’t go to him. Seeing him scared and crying and you can’t make it better - because how can you console your child if they have murdered another? When the Dad saw the cctv and Jamie was crying and he reached out to his dad and he pushed him away and then hugged him tightly. Just honestly heartbreaking .

It made me think in a way - what’s worse ? Losing your child or them murdering another and going to prison. I don’t want that to come across wrong , like I am downplaying losing a child … however I say it I’m sure it will come across wrong but I mean if your child does that you do lose them don’t you ? I don’t mean is it worse to have a child murdered or in prison … But there’s no sympathy for you or support. They’re gone - the child you love is gone. How do you go on knowing your child is in prison , away from you . But even though you can see them you always know what they have done and that a family are going through horrendous pain because of your child. You can’t just switch off your love for your child can you .

I went to bed after watching it and my little boy had left one of his teddies on my bed in a sleep mask … something so cute and innocent. Then I think , there are children the same age as him who have killed another .

Honestly it’s really messed with my head !

It's really difficult and complicated isn't it?

It's unbearable to even think about either position.

I haven’t seen much yet about the victim , so I guess that’s what my post is more about Jamie’s side as that’s what I’ve seen. I don’t know if I even want to watch and see more about Katie’s side as I know that will be awful x

I haven't watched episode 4 yet, but so far I'm a little bit concerned that the only thing we've heard about Katie is fairly negative

It's really all about Jamie and the influences on him.

I think it’s really good that this is being highlighted. I did a lot of safeguarding training around incels and it’s so scary. Children are vulnerable and at risk from a lot of negative influences and I think in this day and age this is something that would be so easy for a child to be dragged into .

I’ve only watched episode 1 and it’s excellent but think I’ll find it to upsetting- son is similar age to watch it all. But as well as all the incel stuff I the fact the kid even had social media and was allowed out like that so late at only 13 made me v judgey. However no one is immune and the hatred of women runs deep. I think the filming and family pov is v good - it is basically a warning to parents of boys to parent them better and look at who they are learning from but at the same time social media is the Wild West.

i haven’t heard much so far . Where does the negativity come from? Is it other male students / Jamie ? I do wonder if that’s to show us the view that incels ( and sadly parts of society ) have about women.

I saw one clip of Jamie saying “ I didn’t touch her or anything , others would “ which came across to me as him justifying it , like other boys / men are worse . Which is the mindset of incels isn’t it . They believe they are good and the good get ignored and that this is the fault of the women.

Yes that stood out to me - that he was out at 10pm , and the dad didnt know if he was out or what he was doing . It’s like that’s acceptable and it isn’t at all .

Katie had also been affected by the boys' attitude. There isn't any more about her in Ep 4 but you learn more about the dynamics of Jamie's family.

I am really sorry OP @Lalalallalalala but part of your post has really upset me.

I lost my sister, and my parents buried their daughter and there is nothing like the grief of leaving your child in a grave vs leaving them
in a police station. My parents have aged about 100 years in 5.

She was young, beautiful - her whole life ahead of her.

My parents cant go and see her in jail or get letters or phone calls from her - because guess what, she is dead.

I am finding it hard when people start to sympathise with the perpetrators of these crimes.

Not a personal attack at you OP but just wanted to highlight that the grief can never be the same on both sides. In my view anyway.

I've got to say

Having recently had to attend accompany someone to report a rape and accompanying tests I struggled to see what was so horrific about the strip search scene.

Ultimately in adolescence the child made a choice. He chose to do something very wrong and that something had consequences.

Whilst it is important to understand the wider influences, it's important not to get confused over who the real victims of sex related violence really are.

Boys are not the victim.

I’m sorry , that wasn’t my intention . I probably worded it very wrong.

I am not going to try and re word it as I don’t think I can either do it in a way that isn’t hurtful .

I’m only 2 episodes in. I found the depiction of flakey teachers hard to watch because that’s not at all what I see of my dc teachers. Otherwise I’m invested in it. We chatted with dc this evening over dinner about emojis and social media messaging etc and the importance of letting us know what’s happening so we can help them with tricky situations.

17yo dd has always been totally open so I never check her phone anymore. Dtds are 13 and tell me lots so I’m happy we’re in a good place with communication. Dd3 has a friend who hangs out in the park with her boyfriend until 10.30pm most nights (since year 8) and I’ve made it clear dd isn’t doing that and why. Thankfully dd is sensible and agreed with the rule. While I think some of my teens open behaviour is down to parenting I’m not naive and know the influence friends can have. It’s scary.

She wasn't sympathizing with any perpetrators. She was sympathizing with the perpetrator's parents who didn't commit any crimes and whose lives are ruined.

I'm sorry for your loss.

i do think to an extent , in some cases they are. Not that they have been forced to do it - they make the choice . But in the case of a very young child with such strong influences you do wonder … would they have gone down that path without that influence ? Have they been caught at a vulnerable time. They make the choice ultimately of course .

It’s like perpetrators of sexual abuse that were once victims themselves. At one point they were the victim. They made the choices when it comes to what they did , but would the same path have been taken if they had not been victims themselves .

It’s like stabbings that happen , by children .. getting caught up in gangs and this idea that they should take weapons out . At some point they were innocent children .. what happened to change that. What influences , what parenting etc .

@Aoppley

Their child is ALIVE. Even if jailed he might be paroled and go on to marry, have a family, a LIFE.

Note the difference.

I wonder how the parents of real child murderers felt watching this, I bet it hit hard in multiple houses in Reading.

My takeaway from the show was that the biggest unsavoury influence on the lad was his misogynistic, violent, angry father and the extremely unhealthy family dynamic he had been raised in.

I wasn't that impressed with the show and am not really understanding the way it's effected people.

For me, the murder made no sense and came out of nowhere. I could understand if he came from a chaotic background, if he was in a gang, if he carried a knife, if he had a history of violence and aggression, if he had a reputation for misogyny against women and girls.

What I saw was a teenager from a decent background, with two loving parents, in a nice neighborhood, with no aggressive tendancies who was rejected by a girl and murdered her.

Now parents are wringing their hands and hugging their teenagers and keeping them close because they might do it. Their sons are online a lot so are going to knife someone given the opportunity.

I get what you mean, it’s the horror of seeing a perfectly normal child become a murderer. I think Adolescence does a good job of showing us the absolutely dreadful impact on his family - and the suffering of his poor silent big sister whose chance of a normal life is destroyed. but it is not inviting us to sympathise to the point we let the parents off the hook — it’s clear they have to carry quite a lot of the blame but it’s also clear that their parenting isn’t really unusual in this day and age. Loads of parents behave in the same way.

Because you’re right op - this boy is a murderer, but he’s also a victim.

It will definitely change the way I communicate and engage with my young son as he grows up.

As for the murdered girl: they don’t idealise her or apologise for her behaviour either. She was expected to have a bright future with everything to live for when she was in primary school. But the impact of social media on her was dire too; she become a flippant online bully with a bad attitude - ultimately led to her being killed.

I especially appreciated the shots in school of the kids constantly on their phones, I thought that drove the point home well - that even when one of their classmates had been murdered, they all just carried on the same as before. Like a crack den, they just can’t be dragged away from the habit.

And this is the problem.

Whilst we still consider boys the victim of those evil incels, we remove their agency and their responsibility.

Andrew Tate thrives on the culture of victimhood. Men are the victims of culture, the victims of feminism, the victims society that doesn't value masculinity

Its bullcrap

Incels aren't other people's boys who haven't been raised right, they are could be anyone's child, in anyone's school.

Which was half the point of the program.

@Icedlatteplease bit isn’t the point that haven’t been raised right? They are physically cared for by their parents who feed and clothe and keep them safely at home - but they are effectively orphans raised by the internet.

Parents have en masse abdicated responsibility for parenting letting kids have uncontrolled access to the internet, social media, violent games, violent and inappropriate streamed content.

I vividly remember the Jamie Bulger murder as I was a similar age to the boys who viciously murdered that poor child. I remember my mum saying even then “they shouldn’t have been war in Child’s Play, it’s not right.”

But that kind of thing barely makes headlines now - horrific premeditated child-on-child crimes are becoming common. It should be a once-in-a—lifetime news story, not something you encounter every few weeks.

Most teenage boys know how to get round a filter.

Most teenage boys have a smart phone.

A significant number, if not most, teenage boys will have two parents who work.

Most teenage boys will visit a friends house, walk home etc

Most teenage boys will therefore have the opportunity for unsupervised access to the Internet one way or another.

No it isn't about children being "Internet orphans". It's about Internet algorithms designed to suck you in a promote ever more extreme content.

We as a society ought to be sorting the problem at the source (Internet algorithms) through regulation.

Until we do the "not my child, he would never, it's the kids who have bad parents" only serves to perpetuate the problem

I don’t see how you can not think that a young boy , dragged into that world , isn’t a victim .

Was he like it from birth? A toddler who thought men were better than women?

No. Maybe bot always but you will usually find that young boys are just vulnerable boys who are influenced by dangerous individuals .

Was Elliot Rodgers a victim?