Grandparent alienation

[Goldbar123]

Hello, looking for some advice on this horrible subject matter. Not sure where’s best to post, so any suggestions welcome.

Bit of background - very close family, always have been. My sister passed away two and a half years ago, leaving four children. Three with her ex husband and one with her partner at the time.
All supported each other during and after, sister’s partner was treated like a brother/son by us all and we all pitched in with my niece, who was 5 at the time.
Around 9 months after my sister’s death, niece’s dad, for reasons only known to him, stopped us from seeing my niece. Only time I got to see her was from a distance at the school gates, as my child attended the same school as my niece.

He has made any form of contact with her really difficult. I have seen her three times in the last 18 or so months. Niece has told us how much she loves and misses us on the occasions we have been allowed to see her.

He point blank refuses to let my parents have any contact with my niece, their granddaughter. My sister would never in a million years have allowed this to happen and she’d be heartbroken if she knew.
He claims that my mum is “unsafe” to be around my niece, yet has never explained why he thinks this.

Everything I have read states that grandparents have no legal rights to see grandchildren. But I think/hope in these circumstances (with one parent having passed away), there could/should be some adjustments?

My heart breaks for my niece. I used to see her every day, and her and my child had such a close bond. And now she’s not only lost her mum, but all of her mum’s family too.

We have tried social services and “team around the family” but he’s refused to cooperate.

If you’ve read this far, thank you! Any advice is so welcome.

The only route to get access to a child against the parent's wishes is via a court order. Possibly your parents could request leave to apply and might get some contact awarded but it would be long, stressful, potentially expensive and might not work out.

Thank you. This is something we’ve considered, but as you say, could be expensive and may not even work out.

It’s so hard because I have messages from him saying how much she’s enjoyed seeing me and my child, and what a great time she’s had. He’s hurting her in order to hurt us.

I’ve got no advice on the legalities of whether or not a court case would be successful, but there’s going to come a time when that little girl wants to know who her mum’s family are. If I were your mum and dad, I’d be writing her cards every birthday and Christmas and anniversaries connected to her mum, put them safe in a drawer and keep adding to them. Maybe you do the same. So that when she does come knocking, you can show her how she was always in your thoughts. Maybe even a bank account so you could add the cash that you’d have spent on presents for her. It might only be a tenner a couple of times a year, but it will mean the world to her when she realises you didn’t just forget about her.

For the same reason, I’d document every attempt you made to seek contact, or message her dad. You don’t know what he’ll have told her, so you can prove you didn’t just walk away.

Absolutely heartbreaking. I can’t imagine what you’re going through. Even if he wasn’t keen on you and thought you were all pains in the arse, that’s not a good enough excuse to deprive a little girl of half her family, especially so soon after losing her mum. You’d have to be really abusive and hateful for him to have a valid reason to do that.

There will be another side to this that you are choosing not to share/are not aware of.

My relationship with my late husband’s siblings is extremely strained, they have used their grief as an excuse to treat me very badly. I’m sure they would say they have done nothing wrong, too.

I’ve recently moved in with a new partner and have my sons’ blessing (teenagers) not to share this fact or the new address.

If your parents value their relationship with their granddaughter they need to be prepared to listen to his concerns and accommodate them respectfully. They might need to apologise for something. Grief brings out strong emotions, they may have unintentionally done or said something that has been felt by your niece and/or her father very deeply.

It's a really horrible situation and I feel for you, but don't assume you understand his motivation. He has a reason and he's not obliged to share it - I would speculate that he still knows she likes spending time with your daughter, but something happened that he felt was more important than that. He's lost his wife, he is going to move heaven and earth to keep his daughter safe and he has to trust his own judgement, even if he's wrong, even if you disagree with it. Framing him as someone who is deliberately trying to hurt you is not going to help you find a way forward.

Grandparents have no legal rights but grandchildren do have rights to contact with their extended family.

Going to court is a last resort as it is probably going to destroy any possibility of a relationship with the father in the future. Conversely, the longer you leave it, the less likely a court will order contact.

The GPs could ask for supervised contact at a contact centre as a first step, if the father thinks they are “unsafe”.

You would need to try mediation before going to court anyway. Have you/the GPs tried suggesting that?

Thank you for your response, and I’m so sorry that your late husband’s family took their grief out on you.

I don’t doubt that he feels wronged in some way, but we have no idea what that may have been.

As I said, he was treated like another brother by me.. he was invited to any and all events/concerts that I’d go to with my brother and sister in law. I was signed off sick at the time and we spent a lot of time together, we went for lunch together. He spent the first Christmas with us all. I went Christmas shopping with him, we decorated the Christmas tree in the way my sister would have (very flamboyantly!).

Until something changed and he cut us all off. If he shared his concerns with us, we’d happily listen but he refuses to have any form of conversation with us.

Thank you for your response.

I’m always buying cards and little trinkets for her, if I see something I know she’d like. I’ve been able to give her birthday and Christmas cards/gifts but I have so much kept away for her for when she’s older too. I still buy my sister a birthday card every year too.

My sister was my best friend, so I have so many photos and memories to share with her too.

I think you probably have some inkling of what his reasons might be.

We have suggested both supervised contact, and mediation, both of which he has refused.

I can only suggest you reach out as gently and respectfully as possible,
”Sister meant the world to us and we would really value contact with DN. I would be very grateful if you could explain your concerns and see if we can work around them.”

Whatever he says, whatever emotional reaction it provokes, give yourself time to hear it and understand that your feelings about it are utterly irrelevant. He is parenting his daughter as he sees fit. Any restrictions he places, however bonkers to you, must be respected. Over time you aim to build up trust that he will have that respect. The only person with any authority to question his parenting is dead and however close you were, nobody in your family has the right to speak for her.

You will not be able to move forward until you accept this.

I think that’s lovely and she’ll really appreciate when she sees that.

I think it will also go a long way to convincing her she’s been in your thoughts if he’s lied to her.

Has he elaborated on why he feels your mother is “unsafe”?

I am going to go out on a limb here. Assuming there is no criminal level of child abuse going on that you are overlooking…

He has researched/sought professional advice on how to support his daughter through her loss and your mum isn’t on board in some way.
Expecting her to be good at something, “just like her mum” perhaps, or making references to a spiritual framework he does not share.

Your parents don’t accept that this is in any way harmful or wrong of them, or lack capacity to remember they have been told not to.

just a hunch!

What a sad and difficult situation, sorry for the loss of your sister.

I'm wondering if he might find it difficult to spend so much time with you and your family, it may trigger too many painful memories of your sister. People grieve in different ways and he may find it easier to compartmentalise. He may be trying to move on with his life and finds it easier if he keeps some distance from you. Of course it's not fair on your niece, but could be the reason why he's behaving like this.

I'd just keep trying to contact him. Do you know any of his family or friends who you could talk to and try to find out what's going on?

He’s never elaborated on any of it, which is why we all find it so hard to understand.

We would talk to my niece about her mum, and she was always asking me look at photos and videos of her on my phone. Never put any expectations on her though. And there’s no religion or spiritualism on either side.

My mum is in her early 60s, so a young and active grandmother.

You've all got to let go. The court won't force her to see your family no matter how hard it is to accept. You can only hope that in the future she contacts you.
If there was a tiny chance grandparents were given access how cruel is it putting granddaughter in the middle. Of your family and her dad.

If you truly love someone let them go.

You can keep cards for her etc put money away and when she's old enough she will probably come back.

Op, could it be that he’s afraid of losing his wee girl in any sense at all and by allowing her to have a relationship with her mums family he is, in his mind, losing her to others.

I actually went to court, not in the Uk, and won access to my grandchildren after my son started using them in his mind games with me. It was torture. Then one day I just decided enough is enough. You won’t do this to the children and me any longer.

Suffice to say that when my son was summoned to appear in court he changed his tune and backtracked on what he’d been doing. It was the last thing he ever thought I’d do but I wasn’t having any of it and I continued with the case to ensure he’d never again play games with the children’s well being and we would always be in each others lives.

I won my case and as everyone predicted, Im now almost bringing the children up for him. But Im ok with that because it’s for the best in a difficult and sad situation. I do wish it was different though. I wish the children had everything they need emotionally at home and that for them Granny is Granny and not someone trying to make everything as right for them as it can possibly be in the situation they’re in.

I won my case on the children and myself having a constitutional right to a family life and it’s opened the door to other grandparents being able to use the courts in order to see their grandchildren. My case was a test case.

Perhaps my last paragraph could help you think about what you could try as a last resort.

ETA. My grandchildren didn’t really know what was going on but I think the speed I moved at was a big reason why. I nipped it in the bud very soon after it started because I knew my son well.

It could be he has met somebody else and feels awkward about it or fears that you won’t let him move on.
Your niece has lost her mum, but it does worry me that saving all of these things for her in the future might ultimately drive a wedge between her and her dad too. Parents are more important than extended family really. To put her in a future situation where you want to prove you are the great ones and her Dad is the problem is great for you, but would it be the best thing for your niece? It’s almost like forward planning blowing her life up so she is left feeling destabilised and lied to by her own Dad.

Sorry, can we back this up... you say you reported him to SS for not letting his DD see your DPs and you wonder why he won't talk to any of you and thinks your DM is "unsafe"? So you want to take him to court to force his hand whilst pretending you're all lovely and concerned? Really?? The selfishness and lack of insight here is astonishing and as a PP said, if you think really hard you (or your DPs) probably know exactly why that contact dried up. You sound like a flying monkey TBH.

Grief is a funny bugger. Why is your mum unsafe for them to be around? My mum is unsafe for my children to be around and we have no contact with her (she facilitated a convicted paedophile having access to my children). She tells everyone a very different story though or just claims she has no idea why we cut her off (or she told one friend it’s because we stole £200k from her and disappeared with the money 🤷🏻‍♀️). So I always take with a pinch of salt when people say they don’t know why someone cut them off, though if my mum had reported me to social services, definitely that would be one reason.

What I would suggest is not being combative, not making threats or trying to take some legal action. That’s awful for the kids and also not going to improve relations with her ex. Keep sending gifts and cards unless he’s specifically asked not to. Make other family members (not your mum if that’s the issue) available to help. I can’t imagine a single dad who in the long term (unless there are really safety issues here) not taking up help with the school run or lifts to after school activities or weekend help so he can have a break and a lie in. Keep it at the level of support, not that you want this or that from him.

I think your parents would have a strong case of getting permission from the family court to pursue a contact order, unless you have omitted any key information (especially about why your mum is unsafe). If there was a close bond before your sister died, it would be your niece's right to continue that relationship. I would say that I think there can be a very fine line between morbid preoccupation with the past/the deceased person and having a positive present and future-based relationship with the child. If you've omitted nothing, I would speculate that your BIL is in a new relationship and playing happy families. Perhaps your niece calls the new partner Mum and they are doing 'let's forget the past'. I'm sorry, OP, it must be incredibly painful for you.

He's probably met someone else and is now withdrawing from your family.

You are clearly baffled but you’ve said it’s not actually about you, it’s your mum he has a problem with. Are you sure she doesn’t know what it might be??