Increasing defence spending: have we lost our “societal understanding of war”.

[rickyrickygrimes]

General Sir Patrick Sanders (former head of the British Armed Forces) said he believed there was no “societal understanding of war” in the UK and that this is a big problem looking at the rapidly changing geopolitical situation - not least the likely withdrawal of the US from NATO and the ongoing war in Europe.

What do you think? I'm 52 now, born and raised in Scotland though have lived elsewhere (in Europe) for 20 years now. I have no personal, direct experience of war. My parents don't either, they are in their mid 70s. My grandparents obviously lived through it, but both my grandfathers were in reserved occupations so did not fight. One of my grans was a nurse in London during WW2 which definitely marked her for life, she had some horrific stories.

We (my family) are very fortunate, I guess, to have never been forced to think about war. But also, we never really talked about defence as if it was an important thing to do, to support, to commit to - and the sacrifice that it entails. We've been able to be quite dismissive about war and defence. My family are all quite lefty-liberal - ideas like patriotism, joining the Army, blindly following orders, being willing to kill other human beings etc are not something I've been brought up to value.

But it looks like war or conflict is coming, and that we in the UK / Europe are woefully unprepared in every way. If we are to increase spending on defence to 2 or 3 or more % of GDP, that's going to have an impact on health, education, welfare spending - and the public will only accept this if they believe that defence is more important than these other things.

Where do you stand? Do you support increased defence spending? How do you view the armed forces and the 'importance' of being able to defend the UK and its allies? Does your family or your social circle have any 'societal understanding of war'?

He's right. In the current climate, defence spending should be 5-6%, never mind 2-3%, and we should fund this by borrowing rather than cuts. We should also work on the assumption that our US MDA is effectively worthless and be moving towards making our nuclear arsenal independent of the US.

It's not just money it's manpower, we don't have enough young people to serve, let alone enough who are willing to sign up.

Should we be encouraging them to do so?

my DS1 has, rather out of the blue, expressed a desire to join the army after uni. The reaction of my family is to be both horrified and baffled. It’s not just that they dont want him to take such a dangerous career, it’s just completely out of their world view. As I said in my OP, we have no direct experience of the forces or the need for them - we are exactly what Patrick Sanders is referring to.

Well I certainly wouldn't want mine signing up!

And a social contract that young people want to put their lives on the line for...

OP I agree. I grew up overseas in a country with more recent history of war and I definitely notice a difference between myself and British peers. One of the biggest things is they have a very pure faith that things like international law, customs, agreements, soft power etc are enough to overcome (lack of) hard military power. I think they are useful but only when backed up by the implied threat of military power - when that goes away, the whole edifice risks crumbling.

Yes why would you fight for your country when full-time job doesn't even pay you enough to have a roof over your head so that you can live independently from your parents when you're an adult.

I’m in my 50s now and the late, surprise baby of WW2 child evacuees. The concept of war terrifies me and I do think something in our social landscape and sense of responsibility to each other has been lost. We resent paying collectively for anything; defense, health, education, someone else’s benefits…I think it re-emerged briefly during the pandemic but has faded very quickly.
i don’t think a modern war would need a large army, though. Just the right/wrong countries with a nuclear arsenal to be involved. So sad it’s a lesson we seem to need to learn again!

My father was evacuated during WWII. Lived on South Coast and he remembers American troops billeted in his town and the ships gathering for both Dunkirk and later on, D-Day. My mother was in Paris and lived through the German occupation. She didn't speak much about it, but the things she did say were pretty awful - neighbours vanishing overnight, tanks with the gun turret directed at her and her friends, snipers still firing after armistice had been declared and more.

I think what successive governments have done to the armed forces is criminal. Trump's previous presidency and Brexit should have been a wake up call. The UK is currently extremely vulnerable, which is exactly where the Russians want it.

And a social contract that young people want to put their lives on the line for...

Not sure they should have to.

I agree on defence spending. Probably cuts to get there.

That’s very interesting, you just described my left-leaning, law-abiding, middle class family very well. I guess we have lived through a period when the big institutions of democracy did seem to be enough - and they maybe have been, but only because they have been backed by American troops and hardware.

With my DS I’ve no idea if he will still want to follow this path after uni - he’s still at school atm. What currently motivates him is the physical nature of the ‘job’, and the training / leadership opportunities. Not patriotism (he’s never actually lived in the uk 🤷‍♀️).

Surely war now is largely drones and remote bombing. Why we still buy weapons from other countries is beyond me. We should have been fortifying our air controls on drones and given more public awareness and advice on what to do if drones approach.

Estimates vary, but the Economist recently estimated that 60,000 to 100,000 Ukrainian fighters have died in the 2.5 years of the war. That’s more than the UKs entire Army of 71,151 combat troops at present.

@rickyrickygrimes Russian figures are even higher aren't they?

All really awful

So we double it and then what?

I think we should get the Yanks out of the UK and work with Europe to coordinate our military and defence.

We have a superpower actively working against our interests and conceding to a dictator who will take what he can get in Europe.

Trump said there's an ocean between us and he's right.

Cutting spending on public services to support the army is completely immoral...

The true burden of war always falls on the working and middle classes. When we ask men/women to join the army, even in peace time, we are asking them to agree to give up their lives for their country if needed. Hopefully it won't come to that but that's the hard truth. "normal" people who are civilians also suffer terribly in war and have less resources to protect them from the worst.

So either you say, it's not worth it we won't have an army and will dance around with flowers in our hair instead or you say: in times of existential crisis sometimes being a good citizen means making the ultimate sacrifice for your country. War isn't fair.

But then you can't also expect the working classes to pay for defence through cuts to the NHS, benefits etc. Or even expect the lower middle classes to pay more tax when their belts are already tight. Those who have the most have to pay. You raise capital gains tax etc. Not to "punish" success anymore than we "punish" youth and bravery by having soldiers. But because it's necessary. If the threat isn't real enough to justify someone having to pay a bit more on the money their money makes then the threat isn't real enough to justify someone else's child dying.

This isn't radical. Keynes made the same argument. It's how we eventually won WW2. It's also how war was financed even in feudal times. The current defence funding issues are a result of neoliberal ideas from Thatcher onwards and basically avoiding difficult decisions by kicking the can down the road.

You’re being a bit OTT.

The US are unlikely to leave NATO, they said last week they are committed to it.

We do however need to spend far more on defence; the USA are correct on this point. They can’t bail us out every time something goes wrong in Europe. I’m happy to pay more taxes, or pay a contribution towards any healthcare, such as a nominal sum towards appointments for example.

Everything Trump has said is designed to shock to make things happen.

@biscuitandcake I agree with some of what you're saying. I'm not an advocate of let the young fight for us. I see posts on here along those lines and think well you're free to do it instead.

As for how to pay for defence increase it's more a political hole than always how it should be done. Borrowing is too high and 'no tax on working people'.

They won't have much to play with, on how to do it.

As for pp and dc interest in army, that's a better angle, if people want to good for them. Otherwise people shouldn't assume the young would be willing to fight / die for them.

Interesting points.
I too have no direct experience of war but listened with horror to the stories my mother told us as children, I can't even contemplate how countries like Ukraine or anyone else at war manage to cope.

I don't know the answers. I don't want my taxes to fund war, and I still think we should be paying for hospitals, education etc. with that money, not defence.
I admit I have a very limited and uninformed viewpoint (mostly from the BBC news) and so have a lot to learn.

However, I was wondering the other night as I watched even more footage of bombed and derelict towns in Ukraine, Gaza etc., is this what we want? Is it really a "win" if a country succeeds in defending their borders but at the expense of being blitzed to oblivion, all their infrastructure and culture bombed flat, and thousands upon thousands are dead? What if we didn't fight, what if we were 'occupied' instead? What happens to places like Switzerland who stay neutral? What about countries who have no armies and who pride themselves in never fighting and never having taken part in a war, ever (Greenland, for example)?

As I said, I don't know the answers at all....

We've become lazy, flabby and complacent when it comes to the defence of this country and now we're caught off guard.

'The price of peace is eternal vigilance.'

We've spent the last 30 odd years pissing about having fun and living in lala land believing that wars only happen in far off lands and involve 'foreign people'.

No pandemic planning.
Nutters Liz Truss/Kwarteng in charge of the economy.
War on our doorstep.
North America going rogue.

Who'd have thought it? Surely all eventualities are covered in a risk assessment of 'Shit Things That Can Happen To A Country'.

On average, in the British army, there are about 5-7 people required to support each combat soldier. The RAF ratio is even higher in favour of the support personnel, and the Navy a bit lower. In other words, a lot of jobs in the military that are not particularly dangerous.

Also, when a country fights a war by proxy (i.e. Ukraine) supplying materials, logistical support, and training personnel, rather than combat personnel, that reduces risk to their own people still further.

You could say society no longer understands war, or you could say society no longer believes war to be a good and glorious thing that we should embrace. I agree we all need to get with the new reality but it breaks my heart. It shouldn't have to be like this.

Personally I do think the UK needs a massive increase in defence spending and it should come from a wealth tax. Long past due and now there's an almost existential justification.

I agree with your first line. The idea of young people having no choice is awful and I include all involved in the current conflict, on all sides.

You create a deterrent.

Ideally via the creation of British/ European jobs rather than buying from the US - which is what Trump is engineering. The US are masters of offloading their defence expenditure on other nations and funding next generation kit in the process.

Yes we do. We should have done it years ago - especially when Russia invaded the Ukraine. But typically our politicians sat back and did nothing. Now we are panicking. The government is wasting plenty of money on needless vanity projects which should be stopped so the impact on the tax payer is minimised but I doubt they will. I expect there will be more tax rises announced imminently.