What's free school meals got to do with applying for jobs?

[Auburngal]

Unemployed and looking for work. A few online forms for positions have asked me about did I get free meals at school and what job category the chief income earner at home when I was in my early teens.

Why do they ask these questions? I know people who had free school meals and have a Masters degree and another person, their DF was a vet and she works at Costa p/t. Though the person working at Costa has had a lot of health issues in her late teens - mid 20s so education was messed up.

Questions about your expected salary aren't D&I questions and are relevant to your candidacy. They are seen by the hiring manager(s).

Questions about ethnicity, gender, sexualiry and social background are D&I information and are not seen by the hiring manager.

Well, so we are told.

However one person has asserted this doesn't seem to be the case.

As with everything in this world, there is an element of trust needed to make it work.

How can I - or anybody - trust that hiring managers don't see DEI data. After all we already have seen that DEI data is incorrect to start with.

You can trust or not, that's up to you. I handle this data for a living, and any employer large and switched on enough to ask social mobility questions as part of their D&I generally has strict and well-overseen processes to handle it. But you can always reply "prefer not to say" on every d&I question and cover your bases.

I've been answering "prefer not to say" since 1980.

However what do you do when you are confronted with a question whose very existence contradicts your own conscience ? A question where the vary act of answering it assumes you comply with the underlying belief ?

The "Have you stopped beating your wife ?" sort of question that would be struck out in a court of law.

But, if we are going to solve the worlds problems around belief, consent and inclusivity, it won't be on a Saturday afternoon on Mumsnet.

Well, not yet anyway.

@Auburngal

It's hard to prove discrimination in recruitment because often the decision making over who is the better candidate is marginal at best. I was turned down for a job s d I know it's because I'm white, the hiring manager told me over the phone (I alas wasn't recording the call) and he felt that I wouldn't fit into the office. It's plainly wrong but how can I prove that the hired person wasn't better than me

Well I think that in small organisations it's impossible If there's only one manager, then that person is HR manager and the Recruiter.

The salary expectations would not be on the diversity form though.

For many many women they reveal nothing more than their husband’s possible heritage.

It’s an indicator of socio economic background and social mobility

Its just EDI monitoring
Usually its just for aggregated monitoring, in my sector at least

Though I think the post may be a bit goady tbc, in pretending not to understand the concept of social inequity.

Like all of the crimes laws existing doesn't stop people doing them

The questions you refer to are asked in other situations too, I'm not sure why anyone would object to gathering data on social mobility but if you are so against it just lie, no one's checking

Salary questions aren't in the diversity monitoring part of the form.

I don't apply to jobs that don't give a salary range in the advert. I also don't apply to jobs that ask me to give my current salary. If I'm willing to take a pay cut for what looks like a good move for me, that's for me to decide and it's no one's business but my own.

"What is your gender identity?", perchance? With no option for "none"?

Yeah, that irks me. Even "prefer not to say" implies that I have one.

@thehorsesareallidiots @selffellatingouroborosofhate

Questions about current salary and salary expectations are disguised barriers to social mobility. The salary expectations one is even worse when the employer hasn't even stated what they are offering, just put the job description.

If you are familiar with the compensation and benefits area of HR, you will know that women, minorities, and people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds (I am in all these groups and despite this I am now in the 1%) are overwhelmingly underpaid for the same work offered to a white middle-class man. These salary questions should be banned, in my humble opinion.

The roles I am qualified for, and typically apply for (finance) have historically been performed by white men of a certain class and university, and it'll be a long time before these kind of diversity questions make any kind of meaningful impact in terms of changing the status quo, so I'm really not sure what the point of them is

It's to try and get people from poorer backgrounds. Weird as it sounds. You should probably say yes. I bet they wouldn't check. Positive discrimination maybe?

These salary questions should be banned, in my humble opinion.

Fine with me. I'm no fan of them. All I'm saying is that they are not treated as DEI questions, and as such the hiring manager(s) will see the answer.

you will know that women, minorities, and people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds (I am in all these groups and despite this I am now in the 1%) are overwhelmingly underpaid for the same work offered to a white middle-class man.

That's the other reason why I don't apply to those jobs. The idea that two people sat next to each other doing the same job could be on wildly different salaries because one is a better negotiator and more assertive than the other doesn't sit well with me. "Better negotiator and more assertive" absolutely correlate with being white and male and having social capital. And the employer knows they can get away with making a lower salary offer to Black and brown people, women, and people with a history of poverty.

A decent employer puts the salary range in the advert. They don't keep their cards to their chest whilst expecting you to show them yours.

That's the other reason why I don't apply to those jobs. The idea that two people sat next to each other doing the same job could be on wildly different salaries because one is a better negotiator and more assertive than the other doesn't sit well with me.

However (with devils advocate hat on) if I were an employer, I'd want staff that are capable of asserting themselves to achieve their best salary.

Also, isn't everyone an individual ? Unique ? Or so we are told ....

Someone can be good at their job tasks without being assertive. There's no I in team, yeah? You don't want to fill your office with hustlers all jockeying for an advantage over their colleagues.

(Looks at US cabinet)

Seems not everyone agrees with you.

Politics is hardly representative of most workplaces.

I'd want staff that are capable of asserting themselves to achieve their best salary.

That's a figleaf. What employers actually want is staff who are cheap.

You will note I was playing devils advocate.

As with everything in the universe, there will be many dimensions to the puzzle. Cheap staff being a main driver. But you can have too cheap staff - as the board of directors of a lot of plcs will demonstrate. There you need the most expensive staff you can get.

And there is always a sympathetic press to run stories about "skills shortages" rather then the reality of "wages shortages".

@SerendipityJane terrible example. David Baddiel is indeed an atheist, but he very much identifies as Jewish.

Picture this: There's a box to fill in for current salary and desired salary.

As an example, I look at a Director's JD, and guesstimate market rate is £220-250k.

Imagine my current salary is £200k and I'm looking to increase this to £220k, so I write down seeking £230k as I plan to negotiate.

However, the employer's finger in the air budget (which they never revealed at the outset) is £180-200k, so they reject all good applicants who said they want over £200k at the first sift, so they can try and get away with underpaying the successful candidate.

Job hunters are on the back foot when asked to write down salary figures in black and white, because there's no room for context or nuance.

Of course some candidates chose not to apply for jobs that don't suggest a salary.

And that is an unknown unknown. The worst part of the foursquare.