'Assisted Dying'? Yes or No?

[WifeOfMacbeth]

Am thinking about this one at the moment.
Are you in favour? Against? Not sure?
I'm also wondering whether views change as we get older....

Yes.

My dad was ill with cancer and then developed two secondary cancers.

He had fought the first cancer well for 18 months and was in good spirits.

When the secondary cancers came they absolutely wiped him out.

He started treatment but it was clear they weren’t working. A light went out in him. He knew he was fighting a losing battle and he just wanted to go, but he was terrified of a long, drawn out painful death.

He was 71 and went from coaching kids football to being bed-ridden, wheelchair bound, incontinent and unable to eat within the space of around 6 weeks. Following that there was around period of around 3 weeks where he was just desperately sad and scared and waiting to die.

I would have done anything to spare him that.

He said to me, as he was going in for the treatment that we were almost sure wouldn’t work “I just don’t want a painful death”

I said, confidently, “don’t worry dad. You give this your best shot and once you’ve had enough, you just tell me and we’ll stop it.”

Of course, when it came down to it, after he stopped the treatment, there was nothing I could do to speed things along. I wanted him to die everyday, to end his suffering, but there was nothing I could do.

it’s been 2 years now and those final weeks still haunt me. Just waiting for a body to shut down, bit by bit. It’s barbaric.

Yes

Having worked in a care home I've seen a lot and you wouldn't let an animal suffer like that, so why should a human.

No. Elderly and sick people are vulnerable to their money grabbing relatives and there are always plenty of those on this forum distraught at ‘their inheritance’ being spent.

That is absolutely not true, some conditions are more painful then others and medical professionals won't give to high a dose for fear of accidently overdosing someone.

My mum suffered horrible pain despite the best efforts of health care professionals to make her comfortable. It's just not always possible.

I do think that it should be allowed, if your religious beliefs don't agree then you don't need to use it. But I totally agree with another's posters analogy with abortion it doesn't mean everyone else should be denied the choice.

Absolutely, yes. Hope things have moved on by the time I get old.

Rushed through ????

Hardly.
this debate has been going on for a very long time.

i am talking about this bill.

The thing about palliative care is that to be effective the drugs may need to be prescribed in doses that cause death , involuntary euthanasia. There are rules for this already as death is not the intended action but relief from pain / suffering.

Better palliative care can mean, for some, death. There isn’t a way to take the pain from the patient so you take the patient away from the pain.

If you are arguing for better palliative care are you arguing for increased involuntary euthanasia to prevent pain and suffering?

It is a catch 22 you can’t have better palliative care without Euthanasia. I think it makes more sense to legislate and give doctors firm rules as currently they are often delays in getting, for example, a driver put in and people can have a miserable last few weeks. I think doctors wait until death is objectively imminent to protect themselves.

Whether you strengthen patients rights to effective, early, palliative care or voluntary euthsnasia people will die. They were dying though just a little bit earlier and hopefully with a bit less suffering.

Absolutely. I remember debating this in the late 90s when Diane Pretty took the U.K. government to the ECHR as she wanted to be able to commit assisted suicide with the help of her husband and for him not to be prosecuted. I don’t think a year has gone by since without someone bringing it up in HOL or the commons.

I genuinely believe at some point it’ll be get through. If not this time then next time or the time after that, the debate is not going to go away.

So for the people who believe that someone has the right to die, why not just commit suicide? Everyone has the capacity to do that.

Because depending on method, it can be painful and traumatic. And you can't do it with your loved ones surrounding you as they would face prosecution.

And someone bed bound and in severe pain is probably not going to have the strength to do so anyway.

100% for it. People should not be made to suffer long drawn out deaths or have extended lives where they have little to no quality of life if they don’t want to.

Not everyone has the capacity to kill themselves. If you hsve something like mnd you may not be able to without assistance. I think you’d have to do it earlier too as may become too frail.

I do think because it’s state sanctioned it’d be a different sort of end. I watched a Louis Theroux thing and a gentleman in Georgia who was terminally ill decided he was ready to go ahead and so his family gathered around and a few hours later he was dead.

Id much prefer thst to leaving a note and hoping my fsmily / someone else aren’t traumatised by finding my body.

Totally against for the simple reason its a slippery slope. . It will become like Abortion. At any time for any reason. That is what will happen. It is being abused in Canada.

So we manage understaffing by bringing in assisted dying?

IMHO we can’t debate this whole topic until we properly fund social care and palliative care. People will be choosing AD due to lack of care options and fear of being sidelined on a busy hospital ward and left distressed.
Well supported care could address many of the issues.

I also don’t believe we can safeguard against those choosing AD to avoid abuse and poverty for example.

I've heard people assuming a wider scope to the proposed UK Bill than it's supposed to have. It's intended only for people already dying, already terminally ill. It would not cover people with 'poor quality of life' unless they are actually dying, and would not cover people without capacity, such as dementia patients, even if they are actively dying.

I think dying people should have a say in the point at which they die with as little distress as possible and I don't think other people's religious or superstitious beliefs should dictate whether others can choose.

But, this is essentially about the relationship between patients and their doctors. Willing doctors should be able to prescribe palliative medications, such as painkillers and sedatives, in high doses to alleviate suffering, including where doctors and patients are aware the meds may shorten life and, further, that they are likely to shorten life. I would be very OK with that for myself and those I love.

I would like to see any legislation focus only on this discussion around legal protection for doctors in their medical treatment of dying people, ensuring doctors are in dialogue with dying patients whereby a mutual decision to increase medication where hastening death is likely can be possible.

My main concern would be the Bill being amendable: I hope it can be so narrowly written that its scope couldn't just be extended to include any patients not already at end of life.

Totally 100% in favour

Nobody has any right to deny a dignified death to anyone else because they have a personal moral objection. Don't like the idea? Fine, don't use it yourself.

"Slippery slope" arguments are nothing but scaremongering nonsense. What is being proposed is of very limited scope, and any future alteration to the law would have to come by means of government legislation, which, if it is enacted, would require the consent of democratically elected parliamentarians, i.e. parliament working exactly as it should in a Democracy.

What's going on in Canada is irrelevant. If they've made an arse of their legislation then it's up to them to correct it, and it has no bearing whatsoever on what has to happen or otherwise in the UK.

Give the article Kim Leadbetter posted yesterday, about a couple not terminally ill or at the end of their lives in Australia being assisted to kill themselves, I would doubt that. I don’t trust her a bit with this bill.

I've heard people assuming a wider scope to the proposed UK Bill than it's supposed to have. It's intended only for people already dying, already terminally ill. It would not cover people with 'poor quality of life' unless they are actually dying, and would not cover people without capacity, such as dementia patients, even if they are actively dying.

It starts like that but always gets expanded. I think there's only 1 country that has got it right. Nobody is assuming anything. They're seeing how Canada treats it's people when it comes to MAID

When COVID happened and DNRs were stuck on the disabled by the UK government. I trust them with nothing like this.

And what about those who WANT to pass at home because they want to be surrounded by familiar environment and known faces instead of strangers?

Professor Colin Rees, a member of the Royal College of Physicians working group on assisted dying, said it was the "single most important piece of healthcare legislation in 50 or 60 years".
"It will have very profound consequences for the future and many doctors are really concerned that members of parliament are not hearing the views of the medical profession."
He said many doctors who remain neutral, or who even support the principle of assisted dying, remain concerned about the bill.
"We don't think it's a bill that is safe, that protects patients, protects families, and protects the medical workforce."

news.sky.com/story/its-simply-not-safe-a-thousand-doctors-write-to-mps-urging-them-to-vote-against-assisted-dying-bill-13380847

But the combination of drugs given to patients in countries where they have medically assisted suicide don’t provide the dignified slipping away that we imagine. It’s really hard for the patient to swallow the volume of drugs needed, and there are reports of feeling burning in the stomach, seizures and even regaining consciousness.

Read my post again? I said ‘hone or hospice’. Better palliative care at home and hospice.

Read your own post you didn't say the words "at home or hospice".

Yes 100%