Please can someone explain the appeal of drag? ***MNHQ TWEAKING TITLE TO POINT OUT STRICTLY SPOILER IN THE OP***

[CurlewKate]

Watching Celebrity Strictly last night, it was obviously set up for Tayce to win. Why? A group of celebrities of varying degrees of charm and bumble- then they are all soundly beaten by a clearly skilled dancer who's a drag queen.
There have been drag queens on Sewing Bee and Masterchef and House of Games. And loads of other shows I can't remember.
What's the appeal? And why no drag kings? Strictly has been great at featuring same sex couples- why not do more of that?

I would love it if we could discuss this in a way that doesn't get the thread deleted, so please post with care.

Did you read the City Journal article posted above? And even if you "don't get the problem" you must realise that many women do think of this as very problematic.

"It's just an expression/entertainment. Drag queens aren't a mockery of women. They are men being a male version of women. It's not the same. I don't get the problem"

Why can't their 'male versions of women' be diverse and representative of the broad spectrum of women in society? Why do they hone in on tropes and stereotypes so often drawn upon to ridicule and marginalise women?

You disagree with all the arguments, fine. However, they are genuine and have been cogently made, so I'm surprised that you can't see the point of view, and at least understand some of the issues.
They want to be crude and vulgar and parody women? Fine, it's a free country. Stick to the clubs, though, not mainstream tv..

That's fair enough, but why would you not explain why?

@NonPlayerCharacter I did explain in my original post.

Obviously I've not seen every drag performance so it's likely some are derogatory to women. In the same way some comedians are and others aren't. I just don't find drag in general offensive.

I do see the points around family entertainment as drag is often adult content but on a show like strictly everything is makeup, costumes etc . Tayce was no more sexualised than any other person on the show.

@LeticiaMorales I didn't see Tayce do anything crude or offensive to women?

Also dislike some of the names which are blatantly mocking female biology.

This is what I hate. Why do the names have to be so aggressively unpleasant?

Hinge & Bracket, Cissy & Ada, even Lily Savage, didn’t feel the need to use names that would be unacceptable in polite company. With current drag queens, it seems the more of a double entendre, the better. 🤮

Agree, it’s a very interesting article. It is quite frightening how it seems that if enough people publish something as though it is a serious, academic subject needing to be discussed and examined in time honoured and reasonable philosophical terms, it is possible to promote ideas that most people find completely unacceptable - such as paedophilia - as ideas which not only have validity, but which should moreover be seen and accepted as part of normal human experience. If you then further disguise and sugar coat your motives in terms of “entertainment” ,“empowerment”, “ equality” and “self expression” it becomes even harder to speak out because speaking out becomes seen as a personal attack on other peoples freedoms and rights.

These are clever, manipulative people, preying on equal measures of ignorance, naivety and an unwillingness to be unkind to promote their own agendas. They are pushing doors open inch by pedicured inch.

Maybe drag particularly pees me off because 50% of the population are female. We come in all shapes and sizes, ages, colours, skills and attributes, strengths and weaknesses, we also can be just as witty, sharp and entertaining as men.

There’s enough of us with a huge amount to contribute, without males moving out of their lane to show us how they somehow think they can do ‘woman’ better!

Where did I claim that he did?
The issue is about making drag mainstream and the problematic aspects of that for women.
You don't agree, fine. But to be honest, many of us have been making these points over and over so rehashing them again is a waste of time.

"Male version of women" yuck.

Drag is not a single thing, there are multiple forms of drag and a number of drag cultures that are independent of each other. Take your example to the ballroom scene from New York. Within drag balls drag isn't just about men dressing as women, but people dressing as something other than themselves. Dressing in a suit and tie is part of drag as 'passing' it's an important part of the scene. There are plenty of lesbian performers too.
We all know the Mumsnet brand of feminism hates drag with a passion, but takes a very one dimensional view of it in order to justify their hatred, but the culture of drag is incredibly complex and hundreds of years old and largely tied into struggles of lesbian and gay liberation.

Very early in the thread someone commented that the use of feminine pronouns was a recent thing in drag. Which is an astonishing rewriting of the post as that grew out of Polari which as a cant has been around for hundreds of years and influenced modern language.
Also the linguistic circles bring drawn to justify the love of drag queens like Lily Savage by claiming they were never drag is just ridiculous.
Just own your prejudice mumsnetters, we know you hate drag, don't tire yourself in knots justifying it, just admit you find it icky!

No, we don't "all know that the Mumsnet brand of feminism hates drag". @Bobbingtons
We are individual women expressing views. Don't stereotype women posting on here.
Don't accuse people of being prejudiced when you yourself are generalising about "Mumsnetters".

That's interesting @Bobbingtons. What is the uniting factor that places the different type of drag within the category 'drag'?

The British public's exposure to drag has increased significantly in recent times through mainstream media. We have only been exposed to one type of drag, so it's not surprising that people aren't aware of the other types. I don't think the other types have relevance to this discussion as they are pretty invisible.

"Just own your prejudice mumsnetters, we know you hate drag, don't tire yourself in knots justifying it, just admit you find it icky!"

I don't find drag icky, I find it offensive. I don't find men wearing dresses, heels and makeup icky or offensive. When those men claim they are women, I don't find that icky or offensive, although I don't agree that they are women.

Drag is revolting as it punches down. It reflects men, ridiculing women. I know that some people find it funny, and I wouldn't want to ban it. I also don't want mainstream media to platform it- online with any other performance that involves people from the more powerful group mocking those who are or have historically been oppressed by them.

Do you really think these views reflect bigotry and/or prejudice?!

I just really don't see drag as ridiculing women. Come on, they behave nothing like women! They're not supposed to be like real life women. How many women do you know who spend their whole time making very sexual jokes and innuendo? It a celebration of camp, of gay culture. It's become an art form - creating drag queen characters who are like other drag queen's- not like actual women, in the slightest.
By the way, I don't even like drag queen humour. I find it incredibly dull, but I certainly don't find it offensive as a woman.
If they really wanted to ridicule women they'd be trying to behave and speak as women actually do. A man could easily do parody of a woman and it would be absolutely nothing like a drag queen. Something like Matt Lucas as Marjorie Dawes or Vicky Pollard are more accurate, yet comical portrayals of female characters.

We all know the Mumsnet brand of feminism hates drag with a passion, but takes a very one dimensional view of it in order to justify their hatred
Drifting OT for a moment ... do sixth forms no longer have debating societies? They're a great introduction to critical thinking.
As you were.

If they’re not supposed to be like women, why the need to wear false breasts, tuck their penises away, put padding on their hips to emphasis their curves and do everything to deceive the eye that they are not male? Many drag queens also seem to go out of their way to look like living female sex dolls, not just blokes who happen to want to perform in a dress.

Sally, I think you are overlooking the power imbalance. We live in a current context where violence against women and girls if rife and women are routinely discriminated against in the workplace place. Until recently there were laws that meant woman couldn't own property and could be raped by their husbands.

Mainstream media would not platform performers / an 'art form' where white people parodied black people or able bodied people parodied disabled people. No one would entertain arguments about criticism being null/void because the caricaturisation was so far fetched as not to reflect reality. This type of performance would never see the light of day regardless of its popularity or whether it was funny or not.

Yes, there is a history of drag - this doesn't mean it needs to be preserved, certainly not through platforming in it on mainstream media.

That argument holds water when drag is performed in adult clubs.But in recent years, the context has changed - now we have 'Drag Kids' and 'Drag Queen Story Hour', and the BBC reporting weekly stories on drag, and the feeling that women are obliged to play along and celebrate drag queens as 'women', and that is what is causing issues.

Kitty Demure.

'...a drag queen performs in a nightclub for adults - there is a lot of filth that goes on, a lot of sexual stuff that goes on, and backstage there's a lot of nudity, sex, and drugs, Okay?

So, I don't think that this is an avenue you would want your child to explore. They could explore dressing up at home like we all did, like all gay boys did, we all dressed at home and we had a great time, we had a great time with our girlfriends putting on makeup trying on clothes things like that, but to actually get them involved in drag is extremely extremely irresponsible.'

Of coyrse they don't look like real women, because they are caricatures of women. That's the whole point. Mocking and belittling a group by heavily exaggerating their characterstics as a form of amusement. That's been done to various categories of human beings pretty much throughout history. It's now mostly seen as offensive and unacceptable. Except when it's about women, obviously.

And also it's woefully unfunny and they all look awful.

The butler sees himself as a higher class of servant to the maid, but to the master they are all servants.

Differences that seem oh-so-important to those within a marginalised group are far less significant, even perceptable, to the oppressor. To the degree that he favours members of the other group, it is simply based on their usefulness to him in maintaining his own position.

The women who believe men see a meaningful distinction between caricatures of women and actual women are falling into the-old pattern whereby some members of the marginalised group recognise the unflattering representation of their group but assume the oppressor group realises they are different, their oppressor doesn't see them that way.

Mainstream drag characters are grotesque exaggerations of female stereotypes performed by men. That is the be-all and end-all of it. Women who think it's men acting as our allies in ridiculing these stereotypes need to ask themselves why these "allies" are taking the stage at all rather than stepping aside and letting us speak for ourselves and seeing what we might want to create?

Who else has 'perceived feminine characteristics'? Why are those characteristics funny?

Personally, I'm ambivalent about drag - I find most of it pretty dull, but some acts are grossly offensive, and some are quite artful.

The resentment and offense that many women feel is, I think, coming from the deliberate oversaturation of drag in the media, 'drag kids', and pushing drag 'story hour'.

If men want to dress up and make crass jokes about how women's vaginas smell it's distasteful, but who cares - just as I don't care what Jim Davidson says in a working man's club it's not worth caring about.

But these men are not women, I'm sick of being told I have to support them, and nobody should be twerking at children, basically.

The resentment and offense that many women feel is, I think, coming from the deliberate oversaturation of drag in the media, 'drag kids', and pushing drag 'story hour'

If men want to dress up and make crass jokes about how women's vaginas smell it's distasteful, but who cares - just as I don't care what Jim Davidson says in a working man's club it's not worth caring about

@ArabellaScott for me the other factor is how drag queens are not just being deliberately pushed into mainstream life and tv, it's the way in which they have acquired a sort of protected status at the same time! Their sexuality may be a justified protected status if gay or bi, but their drag persona is most definitely not.