question about lawyers being paid by criminals

[TiramisuCheesecake]

Just random pondering...

Watching an episode of 24 hours in Police Custody featuring a story about a woman being done for fraud to buy drugs, and the gang which supplied the drugs. The alleged ringleader of the drugs gang has a very flash lawyer with a flash car and was discussing with the police buying another flash car for £75k.

Now when you are defending these people - who were found guilty - isn't it pretty clear that the defendants are funding their legal representation with dirty money? So how does that work? You are literally being paid with proceeds of crime?

Nothing. Just like the Ferrari dealership get to keep the money that paid for the crime boss's new car. A basic premise of proceeds of crime is that if money has been taken in payment legally and in good faith it's non-recoverable.

A friend of mine (criminal barrister) said that it's important to present a really robust defence, even when you suspect the client to be guilty, because it means that if the client is found guilty, they're less likely to be able to appeal and have their sentence overturned.

No access to a defence lawyer = no trial.

Not at all. They are obliged to put forward their clients case (even if they have already advised their client their case is very weak). That is their job.

This is what I was going to say ^

A good defence is so important even when the client is guilty, even when the crime is abhorrent.

If you know they've done something horrifically wrong (because they've admitted it to you) you can't defend them on a not guilty plea, but they're still entitled to legal counsel to ensure the process is fair - for example, mitigating factors that might affect sentencing.

Otherwise, they are entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. If you were wrongly accused of a crime and everyone thought it was "obvious" you'd done it, you'd want a lawyer on your side! So why should that be denied to others?

Some people on this thread could usefully read "The Secret Barrister"

@MostHighlyFlavoredGravy They do need to read more about how courts work and our justice system. The Secret Barrister is a good read.

@Lovewilltearusapartagain So are you saying that they don’t deserve going through a fair trial at all? Do you think they should have no professional representation in court? That’s just not acceptable and barristers cannot choose prosecution only. For all the reasons already explained, there can be a myriad of reasons why representation is important.

Criminal defense lawyers are essential as they test the evidence put forth by the prosecution. People should only be convicted if the evidence shows your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also if you tell them that they did it they legally can't argue in court that you didn't commit the crime, they can only test the evidence.

Not at all, i am not sure what you mean. I just meant criminal defence solicitors obviously have to represent convicted or suspected drug dealers and it doesn't affect their reputation because that is their job. The OP's narrower question about fees is interesting and i don't know the complete answer to it.

They are often on legal aid too.

Many moons ago, when I worked in law, a client suspected of taking bribes had his bank accounts frozen by the police. Permission had to be sort for his legal fees to be paid out of these frozen accounts. After he was found guilty, the monies (less his legal fees) were confiscated.

If you read, Unlawful Killings by Her Honour Wendy Joseph QC is informative. She was a Judge and sat at the Old Bailey for 10 years.

I don't respect anyone this stupid.

Criminal lawyers can't represent someone who they know to have done something wrong. This is very basic information.

Also barristers can prosecute and defend in court. (Obviously not the same case). They don’t usually do one or the other. They take cases from instructing solicitors.

Barristers can advise a defendant to plead guilty if the defendant has actually committed the offence. They cannot coerce a defendant. They are there to advise and run the case for the defence or prosecution.

Anyone interested how the system works - and increasingly doesn't - I can recommend the three books by the Secret Barrister. Our legal system is in a near terminal mess, thank mostly to various governments.

I agree it's hard to swallow that the odious lawyer in 24hr in Police Custody might be getting rich off drug money. It's even more galling that there are plenty of criminal lawyers who do a lacklustre job while leaving clients who can't get legal aid destitute - even if found not guilty you won't always get costs. If the crime is serious enough to get you remand you can leave gaol guilt free but homeless and destitute.

Any real semblance of justice has to be bought these days. What a system.

most people who believe in the judicial process believe everyone has the right to a fair trial and defence.

All lawyers have to do money laundering checks

It's always a bit surprising when you see high-end lawyers rolling up in fancy cars, especially when they're representing someone who's in trouble for stuff like fraud or drugs. It makes you wonder about the source of the money being paid to these lawyers, doesn’t it?

It does make you stop and think about the money behind it all. I mean, even Top-rated Los Angeles criminal defense law firm have clients from all walks of life, and some can afford expensive lawyers.

Either it's funded by the accused (who may or may not already be a convicted criminal, but is not guilty unless proven so at trial) or it's funded by the taxpayer. When criminals hide their wealth and then make us lot fund their defense.
So either way it's not great. But everyone has the right to defend themselves against criminal accusations. So it's unavoidable. If you choose to do that area of law then you know this. Nobody even wants to do the legal aid side anymore. So yeah, they're purely in it for the money.

They do for police station attendance and court duty - the latter they are on a rota for and have to do. If you’re only getting legal aid work you won’t be doing very well. I used to work in defence and moved specialism for that reason. Loved it - but could see it wasn’t great money and unsociable hours. Criminal lawyer on about 40-45k being on call overnight and not getting paid much about mileage for travel. No thanks.

The lawyer doesn’t testify - they just examine the evidence. So they can’t “lie” to the court.

Now when you are defending these people - who were found guilty - isn't it pretty clear that the defendants are funding their legal representation with dirty money? So how does that work? You are literally being paid with proceeds of crime?

At the point they are paid I guess they are still innocent. Someone I know has recently been charged with a serious crime and he's had to pay his barrister 70k up front. I suspect the bill will increase and he will have to make more instalments.

Solicitors, etc aren't going to wait for the case verdict and then present a bill, if your client gets banged up for 20 years they're not going to pay!

@AlwaysLookOnTheSnarkSide there’s a whole host of crimes that attract big fees. Not all criminals have dirty money 🤔

Those that do will likely have a legitimate source of income together with the illegitimate source. It’s not really cleaning money is it - paying for a service. Much more likely to be an issue for someone buying a house etc. Most sophisticated money launderers will be able to show a legitimate source of funds.

Anyone can pay the bill. Family, friends or legal aid if they qualify. However odious they are, they must be professionally defended.

Why anyone thinks what happens in LA is relevant here is beyond me. Many reality tv programmes would find actual reality boring.

What are you on about? You realise their reputation amongst criminals is what gets them business? The bread and butter clients are petty thieves, burglars and drug dealers. They become like old friends - you see them so frequently, if you don’t see them it’s because they’re in prison or dead.