3 year old behaviour is unmanageable - don't know what I should have done

[FlowerInTheSea]

It is school holidays where we are so I took my three kids to the mall (DD1 is almost 5, DS is almost 3 and DD2 is a newborn). I got a few coins to put in the ride on toys at the shops and made it very clear that was the coins we had and once they were done then we'd be going to the bakery to buy a birthday cake for their nanny.

DS started kicking off when the coins were done because he wanted more goes. I did the whole gentle parenting "I know it's so frustrating, you feel angry because there's no more turns left. Now let's go and choose a birthday cake for nanny". It had zero effect and he was still scream crying so I counted to three and he did get in his pushchair and we started to walk to the lifts to get to the bakery. But then he started up again screaming and jumping out of the pushchair so I shouted at him and said that if he didn't pack it in then we'd go home and I'd go and get the cake later without him. He didn't stop so we came home where the tantrum has continued except now it is a tantrum because he's not allowed to get the cake. DH has said to him that if he calms down and behaves then he can come with me later to get the cake. Which is what I want but I'm worried that allowing that will cement his tantrum to get what he wants (even though he's not getting what he originally wanted - more rides).

It's such a minefield and I don't know what I should have done. Writing this down I probably didn't make a big enough deal about the fun of choosing a cake when I was trying gentle parenting at the initial tantrum. I could have asked him what cake he was planning to choose.

Argh toddlers. He's been in this tantrum phase for a year now and it's doing my nut in. It's so tiring to try and do nice things and he makes you think why did I even bother (see also: advent calendar).

It's also extra difficult as with three of them I can't have him acting out, running off etc as he has zero sense of danger and I'm not that mobile as I've got the newborn in a stretchy wrap on my chest.

It also doesn't help that I'm exhausted with a newborn who wakes up to feed every two hours!

Ok, for one he shouldn’t be able to jump out of the pushchair, have him strapped in safely. If he’s a runner when he’s not in the pushchair, use reins.

while you’re exhausted with a newborn, avoid taking all three to the mall.

I found that when they’re the full on screaming stage they’re past the point of reasoning anyway so you could have made the cake buying sound like the most joyful activity on earth and he still would have carried on screaming. You did the right thing in just removing him from the situation, especially when you have other kids to manage.

It’s pretty normal 3 year old behaviour. I have the most adorable photo of my son, then 3 in a ride on car at a big toy shop. Five minutes after that photo was taken, he was having the biggest screaming fit when he refused to get out so I picked him up. I got the full works, screaming, hair pulling, the lot. He’s now a lovely, well behaved 13 year old.

I just came on to say don't take to the Mall. I'd plan trips out like a military campaign.
Ideally with those ages have another adult. Only allow them free rein in an enclosed space. But even the playground is going to be hard with those ages.

It will get better.

Oh and, you didn’t give into his tantrum and let jim have more rides so if he has calmed down, I don’t see a problem letting him go cake shopping (as long as he knows well in advance he’s not eating it as soon as it’s bought. Manage that expectation).

I give you much credit for taking all 3 to the mall.

This is so good to know. DD1 never behaved like this so toddler tantrums are an unknown! I think DD1 is probably the abnormal one though...I only ever remember her having two tantrums - one because she hadn't changed out of her preschool uniform prior to going to her swimming class and one because she wanted to do a wee but had just been so couldn't go again.

1. Trying to reason with a three year old is a waste of oxygen. Far too many words.
2. I don’t disagree with gentle parenting but you are expecting far too much of your kid and will always be disappointed if you put yourselves in this position.
3. Simple commands with two choices only. If you stop, we’ll get the cake (and maybe a treat to have at home). If you keep screaming, we’re going home with no cake and no treats.

Stop negotiating with terrorists. Once your child goes ape shit all you can do is make sure they’re safe and carry on with your day. Wait for the storm to blow over.

Don’t ‘validate’, don’t acknowledge, in fact just ignore the entire thing. They’ll get over it and you carry on as if nothing happened.

Too much is made of ‘validating’ the feelings of small children. Yes, of course you don’t punish or speak harshly but equally it doesn’t have to be the serious focus of the day. Give them a little love or a hug at most, but allowing a toddler to think that the world stops every time they kick off turns them into dictators which is not what is good for them psychologically long term.

You are the adult. You need to be the benign dictator and you say what is important and what happens and when it happens. If my child had done that, I wouldn’t have blinked an eye. They would’ve been strapped into the pushchair kicking and screaming and I would’ve bought the cake regardless. He would’ve been wheeled round the mall screaming blue murder and I’d have completely ignored it. Not pandered to it.

Children need psychological safety and by doing that they know you’re in charge and you’re calm. They know that even when they’re upset, life carries on and it’s going to be ok. They also learn that screaming and crying won’t get them what they want.

Parenting is hard. But trying to cop out with ‘gentle’ or ‘passive’ parenting just makes it harder.

My kid to be fair has never been a big tantrummer, and I don't think that's great parenting on our part, I think that's how she is. I also only have the one so I am really not speaking with full understanding of managing 3.

With that context, I wanted to say that we have gentle parented to an extent, but at 2 it's about naming emotions for them and boundaries held kindly but firmly. It's not about trying to reason with a tiny creature who hasn't learned how to do it yet. You're still making the decisions unless you're in a play situation, which obviously you're not in a supermarket.

At nearly 3 when out and about I think it's mainly tactics rather than reasoning. It's about making the decision and acting on it, but trying to do it calmly and firmly if you can, to show them that difficult emotions are manageable. That's the message, I think. At that age I almost never took her shopping with me (actually still avoid it and she's 7!), which I appreciate may not be workable for everyone. I also never paid for rides on those cars (you see them at service stations too), because that way she got used to hearing no and knowing it wasn't going to change. I think if I was going to pay for the rides it would be at the end of the shop so that the only place left to go is the car (or home if you're walking).

Mostly though I really wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Most of them are tantrummy at this age, particularly at 2 with a new baby on the scene. It's a lot for his tiny head to get used to. It's not your fault or his. Totally understandable to just want him to get back in his pushchair so you can buy the bloody cake and get out of there.

If you can catch it pre-tantrum stage it helps, give them 2 choices (very clearly down at their level) and then always always follow through. My GC was the same and I remember them running round and shouting in Starbucks while I queued for drinks and cakes. They made the wrong choice when given their 2 options so I took them straight home on the bus, screaming and yelling all the way. Collapsing in a swollen, snivelling mess later (at the loss of cake!), we talked it through until the message sank in - I only had to raise my eyebrows with granny's look in the future for them to be reminded of what had happened last time they tried it on. It was easier for me, I only cared for the one, but your eldest will soon get fed up with losing out. Well done you for not giving in, a big pat on the back x

Yes. I guess my problem was that I do always give them those simple choices and they normally choose the good choice but today he didn't so that threw me!

Never talk to a tantrum, they cant hear you anyway amd you are just increasing their sensory overload

Keep the high value activity for last..so go to the bakery first and the rides once they have done all the bakery stuff nicely. That keeps your powder dry if there is an earlier wobble in behaviour

A three year old is going to struggle with knowing how many rides to expect with ‘you can ride until my coins run out’ I would keep expectations completely concrete. You may each have two rides on the cars/giraffe/train. Then it is less subject to toddler logic and then the frustration of when reality doesn't meet toddler logic which can equal a tantrum

He shouldnt go back to pick a cake later. He had a tantrum and didnt listen. You have to follow through. I would take the other two dc back later to pick the cake and ds stays at home. He will remember it

next time you set out to do something, talk through your expectations with him before you go. “We are going to do x y and z. I expect you to sit in the push chair or walk nicely by my side. We will not be buying any sweets/toys/cake on this trip. If you choose to have a tantrum and scream, we will come straight home and you wont be able to do abc. Remeber when we had to come home early when we wemt to choose nanny’s cake because you chose to start screaming…that wasnt nice was it. I know you are going to make better choices today.”

Tantrums are developmentally normal. I repeat this to myself when a child is in the thick of one! The only thing you can do is wait it out while they are somewhere safe, preferably removed from the situation, otherwise just securely held in the pushchair/car seat/your arms. They are incapable of reason during this time but you know it always passes in a few minutes.

The thing to do with gentle parenting choices is to offer two choices that YOU are equally happy with, so it's a genuine choice for them, not a matter of you attempting to guide them to pick the "right" one and getting thrown if they pick the "wrong" one. For example a good choice to offer would be "would you like the red cake or the blue cake", or "do you want one more ride before we pick a cake, or are you ready to go now?"

That way you remove your own stress and emotion from the situation and they feel like they have some agency in their life

Well done for getting out and about with three!! Sometimes it's just a matter of survival at the end of the day!

Dear god, I had twins and we didn't go near a shop of any description between the ages of 2 and 4.

If you have to go shopping plan it like a military operation.

If you are aiming to keep the kids entertained don't go to the mall.

Tesco delivery and Amazon are your friends this age.