marrying cousins

[ramalamadingdonk]

I do think it should be illegal to try and prevent birth defects etc. my grandparents were first cousins. it was well known in our family and the community. it wasn't a huge scandal. they were born in the 20s. was it so unheard of??

There are multiple threads on this topic already, but here are some problems with banning it, or widening incest laws to effectively ban it:

• The communities that practice it widely will continue to have religious marriages that aren't legally recognised. Which will only serve to leave the - often already vulnerable and socially deprived - women in those relationships without the legal protection that marriage brings.

• The issue of genetics isn't clear cut. The likelihood of birth defects increases from approx 3% in unrelated couples to approx 6% amongst first cousins. Which is the same as the increase amongst women over 40. So by that logic, we should ban women in their 40s from procreating also.

• Arguments about high rates of disability, child mortality etc in places like Bradford that also have high rates of consanguinity don't take into account the fact that those areas - and particularly the communities in those areas that practice cousin marriage (in Bradford, Pakistani Muslims, but in other areas it will be other cultural groups) - also have high levels of socioeconomic deprivation, which has a known impact on health outcomes, including at an epigenetic level.

• Those types of arguments also don't take into account the fact that religious groups that practice consanguineous marriage are typically less likely to abort a pregnancy affected by a disability. So the number of visibly disabled people in society from a demographic that is known to practice cousin marriages gives a skewed impression of how much of an impact cousin marriage has.

• There are good alternatives to banning cousin marriage that are already practiced in communities that have high rates if genetic conditions. Ashkenazi Jews can be tested prior to marriage to see if they carry Tay-Sachs disease for example. In fact, anyone with a known family history if a genetic condition can be tested for that condition prior to marriage, or in pregnancy, or prior to conception, or can have genetically-informed IVF.

*Approximately 1/5 of the world is from a community where cousin marriage is commonly practiced. But global rates of genetic conditions and birth defects are not 20% or anywhere remotely near that. The increase in genetic risk is there, but it's grossly overestimated in most people's minds. Even in communities where generations of cousins have married, the absolute rates of genetic illness are still very low.

I wonder how many cousin marriages are actual love matches as opposed to keeping money/property/status within the family?

Slightly off-topic, but I was rewatching Sex, Chips and Rock n Roll recently, it was set in the 60's and has the creepy older cousin getting engaged to one of the protagonists. Money/property/status didn't seem to be a factor in that (fictional!) account - unless his fish and chip empire was meant to be an unspoken reason - more that horizons were very shallow and it would have been a marriage of convenience. A very different mindset, nonetheless!

Exactly, especially when it’s to target a community that largely has non legal religious marriage anyway.

Widening incest laws would make more sense but then what? Theoretically we could have thousands of people (half of them women) that could be sent to prison as they are currently committing a crime.

I wonder how many cousin marriages are actual love matches as opposed to keeping money/property/status within the family?

But that question implies that a love marriage is somehow superior to one that's based on something else (and where, commonly, love grows over time). The idea of a love marriage is a fairly modern Western convention, and seemingly has no advantages over other types of marriage in terms of divorce rates, abuse, sense of wellbeing within the marriage, etc.

The issue of forced marriage is a separate thing, and it's unhelpful to conflate it with cousin marriage.

We should widen incest laws and ban cousin marriages.

Many women are trafficked brought to the UK to marry a cousin and pop out baby after baby.

@NameChange1936 thanks, that's such an informative post.

I did not know that the increase in birth defects was the same as for women over 40!

and the other stuff, I hadn't even thought about

I had no idea that the genetic defect risk was so exaggerated

I have entirely changed my mind from my starting position! I don't find it repugnant or weird or whatever previous posters said (because of my grandparents probably) so now I have no issue with cousin marriage at all. wow that's the first time I have changed my mind on anything in a long time

It's a good idea to stop it for both medical reasons and that it can be a way for coercive control. However education is the way forward because banning legal marriage will not solve this problem because the largest group that consistently practice this tend to have Islamic marriages often overseas, thankfully education within this community means they are now reducing and genetic consequences are understood better by elders

my grandparents didn't have a pot to piss in, so definitely wasn't a factor for them! they were very much in love

Don't need to be married to make a baby.

It clearly isn't the norm now, except maybe sometimes among some cultures. But I just don't see why you would do it?
How could you fancy and have sex with members of your own family?
It's just bizarre to me.
How could it be beneficial?

Well that was quick 🤨

* Arguments about high rates of disability, child mortality etc in places like Bradford that also have high rates of consanguinity don't take into account the fact that those areas - and particularly the communities in those areas that practice cousin marriage (in Bradford, Pakistani Muslims, but in other areas it will be other cultural groups) - also have high levels of socioeconomic deprivation, which has a known impact on health outcomes, including at an epigenetic level*

The born in Bradford study did look at socioeconomic status and concluded that it had no effect on the relative risk of birth defects.

and? 🤨

I think making genetic issues and disabilities the headliner is ultimately problematic. Who else should we then logically prevent from marrying because their children risk inheriting a genetic or genetically influenced condition, particularly since we know here’s a genetic component to a lot of neurodiversitites and mental health problems?

I’d prefer the ban to be on the grounds of preventing coercion and marriage trafficking, tbh.

Seems disingenuous as though you made the thread to come to this conclusion 🤷‍♀️

It’s one step away from incest and probably classed as incest.

well I didn't, but ok

how many steps away from incest is ok?

It's so weird to be sexually attracted to a relative

Habsburg jaw was from inbreeding. Wasn’t inbreeding the reason for Hemophilia in the royal family in Queen Victoria time

A lot.

ie preferably not being related*. The country is big enough.

*Yes we’re all related if you go back far enough, but I’m sure you get what I mean.

It's definitely incest adjacent and should be illegal for the same reasons as incest is. In that it isn't just for procreation purposes, as it is (I assume) also illegal for same sex and infertile couples.

Don't be ridiculous. "Morally repugnant" is a complete overreaction. A close family member of mine married a cousin, although they were long past the age of having children. No-one thought anything of it.

Well maybe they should have.

Considering the horse faced inbreeds that rule over us, with haemophilia and other issues, cousin breeding should be illegal