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When did marrying a cousin become socially unacceptable?

479 replies

LionBird · 07/12/2024 08:12

I'm a big Agatha Christie fan and noticed there are quite a few references to cousins being in a relationship. I'm rereading Taken at the Flood currently, which is set in 1946, and the main character is engaged to her cousin and nobody seems to think it's strange! Obviously it was quite common in royal circles too in the 19th century but post-WW2 isn't that long ago so I'm not sure how and when it became unacceptable to have a relationship with a cousin - can anyone shed some light on this?

OP posts:
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leia24 · 07/12/2024 19:08

I know someone who's parents are cousins and he is visually impaired and so is his sisters daughter. Not coincidence I don't think

thewrongsister · 07/12/2024 19:13

@CruCru
It's hard for those children growing up with disabilities too, they never asked for that. They didn't choose to be inbred.

It's hard on the people who are disabled or had a disabled child through bad luck, not inbreeding, and they can't get help for their child/themselves because of all these others, like the special school a pp mentioned. How many people on this forum alone desperate for years for the right education for their child and can't get it? Then there's this special school entirely filled with one extended family's related inbred disabled children, who ought not to be so and only exist because of their selfish parents intermarrying.

MajorCarolDanvers · 07/12/2024 19:15

it became less acceptable 30-40 years ago in the UK.

In other parts of the world it’s either very common or illegal.

Prescottdanni123 · 07/12/2024 19:19

Weddings between cousins were often a convenience thing. You only have female children so you marry your oldest daughter off to her male cousin who would inherit your estate. So she wouldn't lose out on inheritance per say and in the hopes that a future grandson would inherit the title.

Once, all royals were supposed to marry royals. It got to the point where pretty much all the royal families across Europe were related.

Nowadays, we have better understandings of the defects that can be present in children of first cousins, arranged marriages aren't really a thing, girls can inherit and the royal family can marry commoners.

LionBird · 07/12/2024 22:23

@WhereYouLeftIt In Sad Cypress though it's made clear that Roddy and Elinor are only cousins through marriage - I think Roddy at one point even refers to them having all the benefits of being cousins without being actually related. I just remembered that there's also a murderous pair of cousin-lovers in the Christieverse (spoiler: it's in The Mysterious Affair at Styles), and they're referred to as having a physical resemblance to one another.

OP posts:
OpheliaWasntMad · 08/12/2024 01:40

As an Irish Catholic I find all this cousin marriage stuff very weird. Definitely not ok in Ireland.

OpheliaWasntMad · 08/12/2024 01:46

OpheliaWasntMad · 08/12/2024 01:40

As an Irish Catholic I find all this cousin marriage stuff very weird. Definitely not ok in Ireland.

Although lots of other weird stuff went on so I’m not suggesting Ireland can be any kind of role model 😏

LBFseBrom · 08/12/2024 02:23

OpheliaWasntMad · 08/12/2024 01:40

As an Irish Catholic I find all this cousin marriage stuff very weird. Definitely not ok in Ireland.

It's not OK here either, just not illegal for first cousins.

PickledPony · 08/12/2024 02:28

Inbreeding finishes a lot of European royal families. We all know about the Habsburg Jaw but there were loads of royals with various afflictions from the results of inbreeding. Ours managed to get some new blood introduced to the line and has had much more success.

Marriage between cousins became stigmatised once the general population became educated. Having said that, I’m surprised that it was ever a thing. It seems like a natural instinct to not want to have sex with a cousin.

PissedOffNeighbour22 · 08/12/2024 02:31

Someone has just started a thread in relationships about being in a relationship with their cousin and intending on having kids (sorry, don't know how to link).

x2boys · 08/12/2024 09:13

virgocatlover · 07/12/2024 15:11

It's still normal in some circles and cultures. And it's not illegal in British law.

Personally I find the thought creepy - your parent is the sibling of their parent, and cousins can look very similar to each other. I have found some third cousins marrying in my family tree which is still close imo, but if you go out further you may not even know you are related.

I wouldn't know my third or even second cousins if i fell over them i have 17 first cousins from both sides of the family, do family get together, s were always large without adding in second or third cousins.

PissedOffNeighbour22 · 08/12/2024 19:30

Saw a story pop up on my newsfeed a few days ago about the Whittaker family from America. They live in a place called Odd 🫢 and they are severely inbred. I dread to think how many generations of inbreeding have happened to cause the extent of their issues. Way more than a couple of generations of cousin marrying.

Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 08/12/2024 20:51

PissedOffNeighbour22 · 08/12/2024 19:30

Saw a story pop up on my newsfeed a few days ago about the Whittaker family from America. They live in a place called Odd 🫢 and they are severely inbred. I dread to think how many generations of inbreeding have happened to cause the extent of their issues. Way more than a couple of generations of cousin marrying.

I watched a video about them on YouTube. It's a very sad situation. Apparently those who live nearby are very protective of them which is good at least.
There's also the blue fugates. Inbreeding led to most of them being blue. A blood disorder both parents had coincidentally I think then limited gene pool after that meant it spread.

I suppose there would have been an enormous amount of inbreeding when Europeans first began invading America and settling, just because the groups were so small and spread out, and the effects are still apparent today in some regions.

Puffinshop · 08/12/2024 23:08

peekaboopumpkin · 07/12/2024 10:15

Wouldn't you realise at some point that you had the same great grandparents. Most people talk about their family?

In Iceland they have an app that people use to check if they're related before they date.

Lol no, people in Iceland know who their family members are just as well as you do.

Online access to the genealogy records is for interest, because they go back to the settlement in the 9th century and Icelanders love genealogy.

The dating thing is a joke! People do use it to see where they have common ancestors (like in the 17th century or something) or to see how they are related to famous people, but nobody is accidentally going out with their cousins🙄

GreenTeaLikesMe · 09/12/2024 00:46

Marriages between first cousins could be banned in UK under new proposal | The Sun

Proposed bill to ban cousin marriage. Cousin marriage is already (gradually) falling out of favor among British Asians, but I have no issue with banning it altogether.

In terms of "When did it become unacceptable?" the answer is "In the early Middle Ages, and then once again in the 20th century." The early church in most parts of Europe banned cousin marriages even up to very distant relations - at its peak, church policy banned even marriages between sixth cousins, which must have made finding spouses quite challenging. Rich people could often get round the rules by paying huge dispensations to the church.

The purpose of these rules was not about genetic health, but about limiting the wealth of powerful, wealthy clans. Until Christian times, Europe (like everywhere else) used cousin marriage as a way of cementing clan loyalties and building up lots of wealth and power within particular families and tribes. The church did not like this, as its policy was to limit the power of secular groups to ensure that the church reigned supreme.

When the Protestant reformation took place, the new Protestant churches often got rid of the no-cousin-marriage rules; I'm not sure why, but perhaps they put these rules into the whole category of "the church has too much power and imposes lots of supersitious rules as a way of forcing people to pay dispensations." But by then, the "work" of centuries of cousin-bans had already been done; even without the rules being in place, Europeans were now largely in the habit of looking outside their family group for a spouse, so cousin marriage remained fairly rare by international standards. You did get the odd cousin marriage, but it was nothing like the situaiton you saw in other parts of the world, where often 50% of more of marriages were between cousins.

The fact that Europe banned cousin marriage so early is believed to be one reason why Europe developed modern, individualistic ideas and the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and so on, rather than other parts of the world, because young men and women were forced to look further afield for spouses, the average age of marriage for women rose and women started to exercise more autonomy their choice of partners and so on, and all this encouraged a more individualistic approach to life where you saw yourself as a citizen with free will, rather than a member of a particular clan or tribe.

For all these reasons, I'd be strongly in favor of banning cousin marriage. Between the Reformation and the 20th century, we could "get away with" cousin marriage being technically legal, as few people wanted to do it anyway. It's an issue with some ethnic groups, who are using this as a way to practice "chain migration" of (often uinskilled) relatives from poor countries, which is not an example of good/beneficial immigration and risks fuelling fury and a backlash among everyone else. And cousin marriage is inherently not compatible with being a rich, modern liberal society.

That's even before we get onto the genetic stuff. And the pressure this puts on young women of Asian background in this country, who (despite being brought up in a liberal society where women have many opportunities and choices) may be pressured into marriages with male cousins from poor countries who have predictable attitudes to women and gender roles - and if they refuse, may end up with a limited choice of spouses, due to the fact that many men from their own social mileu may be happily pairing up with female cousins from the same poor countries, with "traditional" attitudes.

Marriages between first cousins could be banned in UK under new proposal

MARRIAGES between first cousins would be banned in the UK under a proposal to be tabled in Parliament. Former Tory minister Richard Holden thinks they “reinforce negative structures and control wom…

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32190456/first-cousins-wedding-ban-proposal/

WearyAuldWumman · 09/12/2024 01:08

My dad's side of the family is Serbian. There are very specific names for different types of aunts and uncles there and you refer to your cousins as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. (Though you can add "from my maternal aunt's side" etc. I read that this was so as to avoid consanguinity.

From my point of view it's rather sweet. I'm an only child but have loads of "brothers" and "sisters" over there and get to be aunty to their children. Even my second cousins are my brothers and sisters there.

Even so, when I visited Dad's village, an awful lot of the folk there were related to me. This might explain why my grandfather had to climb to the village the other side of the mountain in order to find a bride.

WearyAuldWumman · 09/12/2024 01:12

Thinking about it, my Serbian cousins all married people that they met at university.

GreenTeaLikesMe · 09/12/2024 01:23

WearyAuldWumman · 09/12/2024 01:12

Thinking about it, my Serbian cousins all married people that they met at university.

It looks like the Serbian Orthodox church bans cousin marriage for up to several degrees, even 4th cousins. I know some UK people with Greek Cypriot background; the son traveled to meet his distant relatives in his early 20s, fell madly in love with his distant cousin (3rd cousin or something), but was told it was a no-no, which he was very sad about - same situation I guess, as again this was to do with the Orthodox church.

I think your cousins' example perfectly illustrates what cousin marriage bans do - they push people to move outside their social circle to find a spouse, to seek more education or employment further afield, to marry people who their parents don't know, and to marry later (20s at least, rather than women marrying in late teens as is common in some very traditional societies where there is a load of cousin marriage). All these things have profound impacts on the social network, in which I personally would consider a beneficial way.

WearyAuldWumman · 09/12/2024 01:30

GreenTeaLikesMe · 09/12/2024 01:23

It looks like the Serbian Orthodox church bans cousin marriage for up to several degrees, even 4th cousins. I know some UK people with Greek Cypriot background; the son traveled to meet his distant relatives in his early 20s, fell madly in love with his distant cousin (3rd cousin or something), but was told it was a no-no, which he was very sad about - same situation I guess, as again this was to do with the Orthodox church.

I think your cousins' example perfectly illustrates what cousin marriage bans do - they push people to move outside their social circle to find a spouse, to seek more education or employment further afield, to marry people who their parents don't know, and to marry later (20s at least, rather than women marrying in late teens as is common in some very traditional societies where there is a load of cousin marriage). All these things have profound impacts on the social network, in which I personally would consider a beneficial way.

Thank you! I didn't know that about the church. That makes a great deal of sense. Dad was Serbian Orthodox, but I'm a member of the Church of Scotland.

One of my uncles through marriage was brought up in the village, but his father went all the way to Macedonia to find a bride.

it also makes sense of the fact that my cousins all have different Saints days. The family celebrates their family saint according to the patriarchal line. The most common saint day is apparently Saint Nicholas day. (That's our saint.) However, none of my cousins celebrate that day - they all inherited different saints.

I guess my dad was safe enough marrying a Scotswoman! :)

JaninaDuszejko · 09/12/2024 08:50

WeArentInKansas · 07/12/2024 10:39

@Alondra

The distinctive Habsburg jaw comes from centuries of intermarriage between uncles and nieces, cousins, and serious intermarriage between the family.
It was not a one off cousin marrying a cousin.

Yes I know. That was my point. If you had good genetic material, and a one off cousin+ cousin maybe it would be a good thing and result in very very good genetic offspring.

No, it doesn't necessarily work like that. In farm animals there's a concept called 'hybrid vigour' where the offspring of two unrelated animals are 'stronger' but this doesn't last beyond the first generation. Most farm animals are cross bred (a cross between two pedigree animals) and pedigree herds are improved using selected outbreeding. Just like in humans generations of inbreeding in animals throws up genetic issues, e.g. I think we're all aware of how inbreeding has affected the health of various dog breeds.

CountTo10 · 09/12/2024 11:19

Interestingly topical for this thread. A plan to make marrying 1st cousins illegal.

The disturbing risks of 'extreme inbreeding' REVEALED
mol.im/a/14173033

TheYeaSayer · 09/12/2024 12:06

Very surprised reading this thread!
I started a thread on here 10+ years ago after after a friend mentioned her cousin having got together with another cousin.
I wrote an AIBU about finding this icky, and was roundly shouted down, described as racist (hadn't mentioned race, and the couple in question were white, like me) and had loads of patronising explanations of how cousins don't actually share much DNA, it's all fine.

However most people on this thread seem to agree that it's something they feel instinctively averse to and don't think is s good idea.

Timedirmr · 09/12/2024 12:06

Has anyone ever had a crush on a cousin while growing up?

WarmFrogPond · 09/12/2024 12:09

Timedirmr · 09/12/2024 12:06

Has anyone ever had a crush on a cousin while growing up?

You have clearly never met my cousins.

TheYeaSayer · 09/12/2024 12:14

Timedirmr · 09/12/2024 12:06

Has anyone ever had a crush on a cousin while growing up?

I don't have any first cousins, but have two male 2nd cousins (brothers) who were the same age as DB and I.
One was close friends with DB and round at the house a lot. He was lovely and great fun, but no way in a million years would I fancy him. People said there was a family resemblance, and we even had the same surname.
Would have felt all shades of wrong!