Hypothetically if I’m born in India would I be Indian

[eRobin]

I’m a bit nervous asking about this subject incase it’s taken the wrong way. I was speaking with a not-quite friend (an acquaintance as I don’t know them very well but we’re friendly) from Bangladesh. I am Celtic. I asked him hypothetically if I was born in Bangladesh, India, or Africa, would be considered Indian or British or both because of my ethnicity/skin colour. He said I wouldn’t be considered Bengali because I wouldn’t be part of their culture/religion, and other places like India or Africa would feel the same. But when I asked him why he considers himself to be British despite being born here if I couldn’t be classed as Bengali if I was born over there, a woman from Dubai who was also present said that my comment was racist - but I felt that what the person from Bengali had said was racist. Do celtic people not have a culture?

Noel Gallagher isn’t Irish, though. His parents were (are?) Irish, but he was born and brought up in the UK, and doesn’t ever appear to have spent any significant time in Ireland, even if he has an Irish passport. No Irish person would recognise him as Irish, but as Mancunian-Irish.

Self-identification isn’t a clincher.

I used to be visiting student liaison for overseas students in a humanities department at an Irish university. Every year I would get US visiting students in my office, upset because the Irish students didn’t see them as Irish, despite them identifying as Irish because their great-great grandparents had left Sligo in the 1870s.

@Eurosidney that may have been your point, but on a thread about the sensitivities and nuances around nationality and ethnicity, I felt my point was also worth making. Besides which, the whole issue around the nationality of the Southport murderer was that initially rumours were going around that he was an asylum seeker. You complaining that you can't call him 'African' because you'll be accused of being racist is therefore a point worth picking up.

I briefly worked in Tanzania. White people who were born there, went to school there and lived there as adults were absolutely seen as Tanzanian. Especially if they spoke Kiswahili or a local language, but it wasn’t essential.

There are lots of tribes in Tanzania and obviously if you are white you aren’t going to become Chagga or Maasai, but you’d still be Tanzanian.

If it helps I am ethnically Indian but my nationality is British.
There are white people living in India that are more Indian than me and are accepted into society.

In your hypothetical scenario @eRobin , where are your parents from?

For some people of Bangladeshi descent in the UK, their great grandparents were the ones who moved to the UK, so it'd be tremendously unfair to suggest their great grandchildren aren't British. And given that they are definitely British, then why would it be any different if it was their parents that moved here instead of great grandparents.

On the flip side, I'll bet the number of white people in Bangladesh who's great grandparents lives there is vanishingly small, and then there's the whole colonialism aspect too, British people in Bangladesh back then weren't exactly trying to fit into the culture.

So there's not that same idea of Bangladeshis of British descent. It seems at best, a bit daft, and at worst racist.

I knew a pair of white girls in Japan being raised there that acclimated to the degree they preferred to speak to each other in Japanese (home language was English tho)

…. but they were not accepted as Japanese and they never will be.

No it wouldn't make you Indian. You might be able to have an Indian passport though. Both my parents were born in India. They were both British and did not hold Indian passports. I remember a heated discussion with a very stupid ex he was adamant that since both my parents were born in India that made them both Indian, and because both my parents were (according to him) Indian that meant I was Indian, despite the fact that I was not born in India. Both my parents were British, born to British parents. I do, in fact, have some Indian heritage which doesn't bother me at all, I'm quite proud of it, but I am not Indian.

My DH was born in Malta to British parents and spent most of his early childhood there. He had a Maltese birth certificate as well as a British one and could have applied for Maltese citizenship, but he left it too late.

Absolutely. You can't ignore history and power imbalances. This is going to be clumsily put, but...

British colonials were dominating another country and forcing their culture onto another's. They would have been horrified if a child of theirs born in India was considered 'Indian'. I agree with the pp point that if you love in an expat enclave or send your child to international schools you might be officially a citizen of a country, but you're not of that country.

British Asians are absolutely able to consider themselves British. Not only are they usually second or third generation but its a whole different dynamic. And sadly I wonder whether racism is another factor- people are accused of not integrating enough so some may feel they have to demonstrate 'loyalty' to the country they are living in. Or conversely to older generations in their family. There could be pressures that white people don't even have to consider, due to our privilege.

I am Welsh as are my family. I was born in England. Never lived there, have lived all my life in wales. It annoys me when people say I’m English because I was born in England. If I was born in china, I wouldn’t consider myself chinese if I had no Chinese family whatsoever. I suppose maybe I’d have a dual nationality. But I would still consider myself welsh because that’s my culture, language, family and home.

You have described the man as bengali when you have talked about him so in your eyes you see him as bengali so why would you be offended if he doesn't see you as bengali if you were born in Bangladesh.

If you were born in say pakistan as a white person I think the Pakistanis would see you as a white pakistani and you would get alot of positive attention and be welcomed as you would be unique and not the norm and they love to host.

There are lots of different lawyers to this. There is the law. I don't agree with countries allowing more than one passport, but the UK allows that so there we are.
Then there is someone's DNA.

Then there is how someone is brought up/cultural feelings.

All we can do is ensure the law is followed and anything untrue is corrected but also more generally be kind to others.

Curious why you don't agree with countries allowing dual citizenship @Xenia

I can respect it if a country thinks that dual nationality is not desirable because they can leave if SHTF or they might have loyalties to the old country.

It would hurt my family a great deal
to give up the second passport but we’d respect it

Looks like about 51 countries do not allow dual citizenship. It think it is confusing if people have dual citizenship. I only have one and that is good enough for me. I think the UK should require people to choose rather than allow some people to have two different citizenships.

So your reason for thinking it shouldn’t be allowed is because you only have one and it’s good enough for you? What a clincher.

It may be confusing for people who are incredibly stupid.

if I was born in Bangladesh, India, or Africa, would be considered Indian or British or both because of my ethnicity/skin colour.

You have the check the laws for your specific country of birth as they stood on your birthdate. I can't think of any country were citizenship takes ethnicity or skin color into consideration.

Bangladesh operates on the principle of jus sanguines (citizenship by blood) not jus soli (citizenship by birthplace). A child of nonresident foreign parents born in Bangladesh would not automatically acquire citizenship, but a child of unknown or stateless parents would. Ethnicity and skin color are legally irrelevant.

India now - although the law changed substantially in 2019, so go back and check conditions for your birth date - operates on jus sanguines but allows "fast track" citizenship for people of certain demographics (for example, children of refugees from qualified countries who were born in India).

You would have to consult the citizenship laws of the specific African country in which you were born as applied on the day you were born.

You'd be British if the UK judged that you were entitled to British citizenship. In your scenario since you were born outside of the UK you'd probably need a British citizen parent born in the UK in order to establish British (UK) citizenship. Any other citizenship you might be entitled to is irrelevant to establishing UK citizenship. If you don't qualify, you could possibly qualify for an Ancestry Visa if you are a citizen of a Commonwealth country with a grandparent born in the UK. You might also check if you are eligible for Irish citizenship, if any parent or grandparent was born in Ireland, including NI.

I’m always 😳 when you here Americans say they’re Irish - assume they mean their parents are Irish etc…..but no, it transpires that they consider themselves to be Irish American even though they’ve never stepped foot in Ireland and it was their Great, great, great grandmother who was from Tipperary 🙄😂

You have to understand that Americans do not (despite what the propaganda tells you) shed their ethnic roots in the second gen onwards. I think this is a common experience worldwide and I wish more naive Europeans understood this.

Like some black Americans persist in calling themselves African Americans even though they’ve not been in Africa for hundreds of years at this point.

I’ve noticed that Irish sort of reject Irish-Americans as not real Irish but then they’ll make a dog and pony show out of a first generation immigrant, ‘oh how Irish they are, they drink Barry’s Tea and speak a few words of Gaeilga’. But then when a famous Irish-American does something great they’ll start to reclaim them again. Hilarious if it wasn’t so sad lol

(I am not ethnic Irish so don’t have a dog in this fight btw)

So you were born and grew up in northern England and you consider yourself Irish?

Just chatted with DH about this.
Census should add in UK British/other or something like that. There are categories like British/Asian but not really British /any other wtoe background or British/other iirc
Like what would someone born and growing up in UK to British and Polish parents tick? Any other white background is imho not that suitable really. They would be british buy mixed with other background ethnically

You are trying to find neat categories to stick everyone in that don't exist. There are a few facts that you could use: 1. Nationality 2. Ethnicity 3. Country of birth but the question "where are you from" is so subjective that there are no factual truths. From the individual's point of view they are from wherever they feel they are from and this might be different to where other people think they are from.

I am ethnically A, was born and grew up in B and now live in the UK. I have dual Nationality of B and the UK. My friends from A think I'm A. My friends from B think I'm from B and if you ask me I'll tell you I'm A because I look A and it's the easiest answer that doesn't require me to give my backstory.

To answer your question if you ŵere born in India and one of your parents had indian citizenship you would be an indian citizen (as far as I know) in the eyes of the law. What others think depends on so many different factors and will differ from person and person. What your acquaintance thinks is just an opinion and means nothing really. Don't base you world view on it (and not that you are doing that but just saying: don't use it to justify racism or discrimination)

I think a major problem with this thread is based on definition, ie, nationality vs cultural background vs what others perceive you to be vs what you perceive yourself to be. OP immediately muddied the waters by proclaiming themselve to be Celtic as opposed to being British.

I know a lot of people born in the UK to immigrant parents and holding British nationality who would not agree that the 'are', say, English. I don't consider myself to be English. My nationality is British (well dual as I'm automatically a national of my parents' country) but as far as I'm concerned what I 'am' is the same as my parents just as the poster considers themselves to be Irish despite being born here. I also have other affiliations such as being a Northerner and from my home county.

So, by OP asking if they were born in India they would 'be' Indian' we've ended up with a thread where people cannot possibly have a common perspective on it. It's all in the definition.

Your nationality is the country that you are a legal citizen of. Every country determines its own citizenship rules. "Where you are from" could mean anything and doesn't mean anything legally.