Is popping wearing and remembrance fading with younger generarions?

[mids2019]

At my daughter's school teachers were heavily suggesting that they observe remembrance and it goes in with WA1 and WW2 history.

However it seems at least some think the poppy is outdated or overly political so tend not to wear poppies.

Is remembrance going to diminish with the passing of time and do young people have a point that is has misappropriated by certain factions?

I posted on another thread that my Dad thought remembrance should be a personal matter for those who actually fought. I think a middle ground would be just a acknowledgement on 11/11, the one day, and not all the constant poppy wearing, extra silences on random days, rememberance festivals on TV, and a gentle winding down now we have past 80 years on. It used to be much less of a "performance".

Yes, but conversely, that’s exactly why many people don’t wear one — because they’re not comfortable with dignifying atrocities carried out by the British armed forces, or donating to bodies that support those currently serving or veterans.

All these people who don’t support our military wouldn’t turn them away if their homes were flooded, or the emergency services went on strike or they were standing between them and a terrorist would they?

Whether you approve of the manner and means, the reality is we need a military defence and that means armed services and the infrastructure that surrounds them. I think because there has been little conflict in the UK in most living memory, people view the armed forces as a means of aggression and oppression towards other nations, which has some weight. If no one was willing to join up though, where would that leave us as a nation

I feel quite cynical about the whole thing nowadays. WW1 was the war to end all wars; we said 'never again' after the holocaust; but there are still wars and genocides and we haven't learnt an iota, as a species. It feels hollow to me to wear a symbol of the cost of war and conflict for a few days and then go back to not giving a shit about it at a national level once the 11th has passed.

I also strongly dislike the proclivity nowadays for decorating stuff with poppies. We decorate to celebrate. We shouldn't be hanging poppy garlands and having big poppy postbox toppers like it's Christmas. It's a time of reflection and mourning. If anything, we should be dialling back on decorations and making things more spartan.

@TheFairyCaravan, I would support a vast expansion of our emergency services.

It's not about supporting the armed forces though, there is a difference between being conscripted and choosing it as a career. And much like Nursing and Teaching it is another area poorly funded by govt and it is an area - particularly leaving the military and dealing with physical and MH issues that come from that that although have been much improved since the WW's still needs improvement and should be centrally funded, we should have no need for the RBL.

All these people who don’t support our military wouldn’t turn them away if their homes were flooded, or the emergency services went on strike or they were standing between them and a terrorist would they?

I think there's different definitions of "support" (or not). I don't support warfare or violence, and dislike that we need to have a military and send young people abroad to die or be harmed, sometimes for dubious reasons, (but am pragmatic enough to realise we do!). But I make a distinction between not always supporting what the military stands for, and feeling uncomfortable with how the poppy has been co-opted by nationalist and right wing groups, and supporting human beings. When I was in practice in mental health care, I met veterans and families who had made huge sacrifices and suffered as a result of serving. They needed and deserved support, whether or not I agreed with everything they did in their job.

I absolutely don't agree with the idea that they chose their career so they can deal with the fallout and sod all the veterans with PTSD, life changing injuries, etc. Many young men in particular go in young, think they will be helping save innocent lives, are very naive about the possible outcomes, or think "it won't happen to me". Some change their minds and begin to feel morally injured by the things they are asked to do, or see happening. It's also very difficult if you speak up in the military about wrongdoing.

There's a difference between questioning how institutions work and not supporting what they stand for, and condemning or not supporting people.

Funds from selling poppies go to supporting currently serving and formerly serving members of the armed forces and their families. No one has been conscripted into the UK armed forces since national service ended in the early 1960s.

@Jellycatspyjamas, the fact is that the vast majority of those who join the army do so because they are poor and have few qualifications or other opportunities — this limits seeing it as a ‘choice’ since its economically enforced to an extent. One of my great-uncles (who served in WWI but was in the army several years before war broke out) lived into my lifetime and was very frank about him and his brothers signing up because they needed the money and didn’t have many other opportunities.

That's a very good point, actually - I phrased it badly.

Yes, they were technically freely volunteering, however, I get the strong impression - and sadly there's barely anybody alive today who could confirm or deny - that there would have been a great deal of pressure put on young men to 'do the right thing'; and quite probably also shaming and humiliating for those who didn't.

Sex roles and stereotypes were also much more ingrained in society then, so I can well imagine that, if you were a young, fit, healthy man then, not volunteering would have come with shunning and constant accusations of being unpatriotic, not caring about others' lives, not being a 'real man', staying home with the women and the grandads etc.

I completely agree.

I'm choosing my words carefully here, but I think that, in (rightfully) praising the people who fought for their sacrifice and devotion, the Remembrance celebrations do actually risk glossing over the realities - with talk of the 'glorious' dead and triumphalism.

There's never any real focus on the whole horrific nature of war - yes, there are a few personal snapshots; but I see too much of a blurring between the brave people who did what they had to do and the 'glory' of the war in itself.

Maybe it's taken as a given that war is horrific, but with the mixed messages that they're potentially giving out to the younger generations - born further and further away from the World Wars - I just can't see how this is being hammered home: the message that, rather than stepping up and fighting bravely in war, striving for a world without wars would be infinitely the more glorious state of affairs, however unrealistic it sadly will be in practice.

I don't know if I've worded that very well, but basically, we should never lose the hatred and abhorrence of war itself, however much we appreciate, admire and celebrate those who did what they had no/little choice but to do.

I think this is so very sad - that modern-day Germans still feel this burden of guilt and shame of what people who died long before they were born did on behalf of their country.

Of course, we acknowledge and remember the past - and, most crucially, do whatever we possibly can to prevent the horrors of history from being repeated - but the shame of our ancestors is not ours to bear.

Goodness knows that Britain has so much historical blood on its hands; yet we don't share the same collective guilt that the Germans seem to - indeed seem to be expected to.

Instead, we live in a country that, whilst supposedly acknowledging the very many wrongs of our empire past, to this day continues to give national honours to people in the name of the British Empire. Indeed, Blair was given the highest of these honours in spite of his own extremely bloody hands, all perpetrated without any sense of personal guilt or apology, in the living memory of the vast majority of us adults.

If anything it’s more of a thing at primary school. Less so at secondary school.

To the extent this generation doesn’t have such a widespread experience of family members who have been in a war, or affected by a war, it’s perhaps harder for them to engage. News stories on TV feel far away and unreal.

I remember going to poppy parades as a child and sitting alongside people weeping.

When we passed our war memorial walking to the park, my mum would always stop and pray, and make me sit quietly.

I remember watching my grandad die a fairly horrible death having “survived” both WW1 and WW2. I listened to my dad tell me that every single one of his male cousins died in WW2, and he was the last surviving boy in his family. I heard my mum say that her gran had a breakdown after her sons were all killed or drowned in te Merchant Navy, and never left the house again, and cut my mum off because she couldn’t face seeing any of her grandkids.

I will never forget those inherited memories and emotions.

I can’t expect my kids to really have such a personal connection by I hope they will always respect the remembrance occasion and the sacrifices made by so many, to protect us and fight overseas on our behalf.

I don’t know any young Germans who feel shame. Consciousness of the past, for sure - but in the current generation i find that has been positively transformed into a keen desire for European collaboration to be a success.

As for harking back to the empire - I totally agree about honours in the name of empire. But then again we are still handing out knighthoods and I don’t see anyone charging around on a horse with a jousting stick. Does anyone take any of it seriously outside the echelons who get the favours?

The average person on the street is sickened by the what Britain did in the name of empire. And by the way, what happened to the working class of throat country wasn’t a pretty picnic either, a lot of the time.

Exploitation, power, greed, aggression … the history of the privileged few. It was ever thus.

Then, during Blair's prime ministership I think, there was a deliberate resurrection of all of the paraphernalia of remembrance. It was intended to coincide with several big anniversaries associated with WW2 as I recall, but it was also a function of Blair's huge talent for branding and show.
And if this was Blair's idea, it's ironic as he really wanted a war, based on a lie (and I think he almost certainly knew it was a lie); for which he should be in prison for war crimes. I went on that anti-war march, on a freezing day in February. And the father of somebody killed in Blair's war refused to shake his hand, saying "there's blood on it". The present-day Labour party should have spoken out against Blair's knighthood, but they chose to remain silent.

Remember also that slogan "wear your poppy with pride"? The 2020 equivalent was "clap the NHS with pride".

Blackadder got it right. That "over the top" episode with the extremely poignant ending was first broadcast a week before Remembrance Sunday, and there was not a single complaint about this.

My grandfather and his brother were at the Somme, (36th [Ulster] Division)- both came from what is now Northern Ireland. I don’t think they had any hesitation joining up, or experienced any pressure to do so. My grandfather was decorated for his bravery in that battle, his brother did not survive it. On the first day of the battle, 1 July 1916, their compatriots suffered over 5,000 casualties. My granny told me there wasn’t a house in the district that wasn’t mourning someone. Tragic loss of life.

I think the poppy appeal is a very cleaver marketing campaign as it operates by guilt. I have a huge interest in understanding wars and I don’t wear a poppy. I find personally think a lot of poppy wearers are not interested in understanding wars, preventing future wars or anything real. It’s more of a “look at me, I am a do-gooder”.

The poppy was chosen because it grew on the ground where millions of men lost their lives fighting, and women and children died establishing the fronts.

The poppy's didn't care if the blood in soil was French, British, German, Canadian or Kenyan, or if the person prayed in a church, synagogue, to mecca or not at all.

Those saying they don't like the poppy because it's not PC or if glorifies war are really missing the point.

Yes, it's a big thing in our village too. We had a service and parade with lots of scouts, Brownies, Guides etc as well as usual people you would expect, there was lots done at school around it for DD1 and for my Brownies unit, they all knew a lot and were enthusiastic to talk about what they had learned and do some poppy crafts.

I've noticed a distinct lack of poppy wearing from all generations this year.

No, there’s more to it. The very sad poem (by John McCrae) that originally inspired the whole poppy memorial ends by asking for the quarrel to continue or the dead won’t rest.

‘In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.’

Also, buying the poppy supports veterans of the British armed forces today, which can be problematic for people for various reasons.

I'm 50 and I haven't worn a poppy in decades.
As a teenager I was in cadets and routinely took part in the remembrance day church parade.

I now find the whole British attitude to remembrance to be deeply cynical. It's entirely conditional on Britain having been on the right side of history throughout, despite evidence to the contrary. It's a hollow national pride that can't admit or accept the mistakes alongside the victories, or the crimes alongside the heroism.

I think it will be inevitable as over the next few years the second world was drops put of living memory.

Don’t you live in Spain? ( seem to remember you saying so on another thread).

So not many people would be wearing a poppy in your neighbourhood, given Spain’s ‘neutrality’ in both World Wars .

Yes i do. And?

🙄