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Idontpostmuch · 02/11/2024 23:35

Alltheyearround · 02/11/2024 22:10

I think Ancestry and 23 and me should have some genetic counselling options in the event of something like this - seems irresponsible to unleash DNA family knowledge without responsibility.

It's well recognised that for children who are adopted that a careful process is followed for all concerned.

There is something about counselling but I haven't looked at it. It may just be links and addresses and information about how to access it. I don't knowmif Ancestry actually do anything.

Idontpostmuch · 02/11/2024 23:38

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2024 22:03

You are talking nonsense.

@RedToothBrush Not nonsense, but I've already admitted to being off topic. You're not exactly making yourself look good by such a snarky comment.

ImustLearn2Cook · 03/11/2024 00:35

whatsthatwordagainfeet · 02/11/2024 15:44

Oh wow I hadn’t heard of cases in this country

I did see one on a tv programme (can’t remember which one it was!) of a case in Italy. The girls went to the same nursery when the mums realised something was amiss. They all moved in together for a while and the mums are still best friends, the girls now are adults and like sisters. So it all ended very well in that particular case (against all the odds)

Was the tv program called Sisters Forever?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9993719/amp/Two-women-23-tell-swapped-birth-hospital-mix-up.html

Two women, 23, tell how they were swapped at birth in hospital mix-up

Caterina Alagna and Melissa Fodera, both 23, from Sicily, who were accidentally swapped at birth and brought up as sisters by their families have detailed their unique journey in a book and film.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9993719/amp/Two-women-23-tell-swapped-birth-hospital-mix-up.html

NewGreenDuck · 03/11/2024 06:41

Idontpostmuch · 02/11/2024 18:24

Something doesn't quite add up. Claire was on as his sibling, but Jessica wasn't. Well, Jessica hadn't been tested, so even if she'd been his biological sister, she wouldn't have featured as a match. Nor would she have been suggested as a hint or shown in 'thru lines' on Ancestry or its equivalent in another company, since living persons are only entered anonymously. So even if she'd been swept up by the site from another member's tree, there would have been no mention of her. The fact that Jessica didn't feature meant nothing, and it's surprising the BBC got something like that wrong.

I don't know where you get the idea that living people are anonymous on ancestry? A person can choose not to make their family tree public, they can make living people 'private' on their trees, and can choose not to have notifications, but many people do the test precisely to find relatives. I have literally thousands of relatives on my notifications, some don't have public family trees, but I can still contact them to request assistance with mine. And they can choose to decline.
But for many if us, the point of the family tree and the DNA test is to find relatives.

Funkyblues101 · 03/11/2024 08:18

For those of you appalled at the treatment of Jessica, I suspect that a great deal of the situation has been omitted because it involves Jessica who has refused to take part. It would be harsh to "dish the dirt" on Jessica, who is innocent in this, so they are saying very little.
Typically on MN it is expected that "chaotic homes" are a result of ND, which is often genetic. So it is likely that Jessica was not living on a bed of roses prior to the discovery, despite her better upbringing.

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 03/11/2024 08:30

Idontpostmuch · 02/11/2024 23:38

@RedToothBrush Not nonsense, but I've already admitted to being off topic. You're not exactly making yourself look good by such a snarky comment.

Tony did the test.
Various cousins etc pinged up.
One person came up as his full sister, a person he had no knowledge of. He messaged her as he assumed this was a mistake.
They chatted and realised that she had been born in the same hospital at the same time as the woman who had been raised as his sister.
They worked out that there had been a swap. No DNA samples from anyone else were needed.

dogfail · 03/11/2024 08:40

AmandaHoldensLips · 02/11/2024 10:39

I know this isn't the point and might sound ridiculous, but having had a couple of babies myself, I'm wondering how the mothers did not recognise that the baby handed to them was not theirs.

This is so tragic.

When did you have your babies? Years and years ago mum go a quick post labour cuddle (like a few minutes) then baby was whisked away to be checked , cleaned , dressed and placed inthe nursery. So it might be a couple of hours before baby is brought to mum for feeding .

I can totally see how it could happen. I suspect that there are more cases like this in history that just remain unknown.

I remember listening to a podcast once where it described a situation in the sixties where a woman who had given birth at home and baby had had to go to hospital. A nurse dropped the baby back home later that night. But a couple hours later a different nurse turns up with another baby! Turned out a woman over the street had also given birth so the nurse took that baby to the neighbours house.

When the grandchildren heard this story decades later they pointed out how did the mums know whose child was whose. But no one wanted to find out so they left it as it was.

Anotherfrozenpizzafortea · 03/11/2024 08:47

BibbityBobbityToo · 02/11/2024 11:12

I hardly seen DS when he was born, I was so drugged up my eyes weren't working properly and all I could see was a slimy pink blob.

The midwifes took him away to bath him and by the time I got a proper look at him he was all clean and swaddled in a blanket. I would have trusted any fair haired baby was mine when I finally got my hands on him.

DNA tests have caused so much damage.

It's not the DNA tests that have caused the damage, it's the mistakes and infidelity that caused the damage.

I read somewhere that 1 in 10 kids aren't their father's child. That's not a DNA testing problem.

Feel awful for the women in the article though.

Idontpostmuch · 03/11/2024 08:48

NewGreenDuck · 03/11/2024 06:41

I don't know where you get the idea that living people are anonymous on ancestry? A person can choose not to make their family tree public, they can make living people 'private' on their trees, and can choose not to have notifications, but many people do the test precisely to find relatives. I have literally thousands of relatives on my notifications, some don't have public family trees, but I can still contact them to request assistance with mine. And they can choose to decline.
But for many if us, the point of the family tree and the DNA test is to find relatives.

Sorry, I typed that post in a hurry when I was already running late. I didn't mean the tree owner. I meant family members. When I look at my matches' trees some entries are 'Private - Living' instead of a name.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2024 09:19

Idontpostmuch · 03/11/2024 08:48

Sorry, I typed that post in a hurry when I was already running late. I didn't mean the tree owner. I meant family members. When I look at my matches' trees some entries are 'Private - Living' instead of a name.

If you have your tree set to private, it doesn't mean they are totally private if your tree is linked to your DNA and you have thru lines enabled!

I absolutely can work out someone's relationship in that situation. It's more difficult but it is possible.

If you want it to be private, unlink it from your DNA profile. And really don't enable thrulines

MissRoseDurward · 03/11/2024 09:54

I read somewhere that 1 in 10 kids aren't their father's child. That's not a DNA testing problem.

A friend did a course in forensics. They were told that if it was necessary to get DNA samples from parents, samples should always be taken from both parents, because of the possibility that the father isn't the father.

KnottedTwine · 03/11/2024 10:12

MissRoseDurward · 03/11/2024 09:54

I read somewhere that 1 in 10 kids aren't their father's child. That's not a DNA testing problem.

A friend did a course in forensics. They were told that if it was necessary to get DNA samples from parents, samples should always be taken from both parents, because of the possibility that the father isn't the father.

That figure is widely regurgitated in the media but there is no proof for it at all. In genealogy we refer to this as a NPE - not the parent expected. Usually it's the father as there is far less doubt over who a mother is for obvious reasons.

There's a lot more discussion about it here: https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event

A UK-based sample puts the rate at under 2%, a review academic study looking at lots of other papers concluded "In 2006 Anderson examined non-paternity rates from 67 published studies. Non-paternity rates for men who were judged to have high paternity confidence ranged from 1.9% in the U.S. and Canada, 1.6% in Europe, and 2.9% elsewhere".

So not nearly as high as 1 in 10 in most cases.

KnottedTwine · 03/11/2024 10:13

To add - the figure is sometimes skewed by taking in the results of paternity tests. Because in most cases you'd only have a paternity test if you weren't sure of who a baby's father is, so it's not a representative sample.

Mrsgreen100 · 03/11/2024 17:43

Personally, I would be wrapping Jessica with love spending huge amount of time with her lavishing love on her and supporting her

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 03/11/2024 17:54

Mrsgreen100 · 03/11/2024 17:43

Personally, I would be wrapping Jessica with love spending huge amount of time with her lavishing love on her and supporting her

If you listen to the podcast she seems to have rejected the mother who raised her. Now she hasn’t given her views and her side of the story but that is what her mother has said.

anon666 · 03/11/2024 18:23

I guess it is possible to see it differently. Clare seems relatively magnanimous about the fact that she was cheated out of her true family, and instead had a life of hardship. She's now just happy to have found a second family.

Jessica would have had that life if it weren't for the swap, and instead has had a much less troubled life with what sound like nicer people.

Win win. I get that it's not that simple. But it's not as horrendous for Jessica as PPs are saying. Is it?

neighboursmustliveon · 03/11/2024 18:47

Awfully sad story.

Just wanted to add though, my children were born in 2007 and 2009 and both had electronic tags on as soon as they were born. This was to prevent theft from the ward though and wouldn’t help with switching babies. My oldest tag was too big so was just sitting on the foot of his baby grow 😂

skyscrapersinging · 03/11/2024 19:28

AmandaHoldensLips · 02/11/2024 10:39

I know this isn't the point and might sound ridiculous, but having had a couple of babies myself, I'm wondering how the mothers did not recognise that the baby handed to them was not theirs.

This is so tragic.

Did you have a Caesar or other type of birth with heavy intervention? I did, and there’s no way I would’ve recognised the baby they eventually thrust at me when I recovered. Sure, she looks like me now, but at ten hours old, she also looked like every other newborn in the damn place.

JustMeAndTheFish · 03/11/2024 19:32

I feel for them but it can work in positive ways too.
I always knew that I was adopted but, when I took a dna test a few years ago, it was really just to convince myself that I was part Viking (box ticked!)
However, it also uncovered a half cousin who didn’t know I existed which opened a direct line to my birth father, brothers and cousins. For which I am very grateful.

Christwosheds · 03/11/2024 21:03

GrumpyCactus · 02/11/2024 10:47

A bit of a side note, the article mentioned that since the 1980s all newborns have been fitted with radio tracking devices. I've had two babies in hospital in the last 15 years, and they never had anything other than a plastic wrist band with my NHS number printed on and "Baby Surname" written in sharpie?

I thought that was inaccurate too. My son is 4 and he only had a band with information written on. I wonder if it varies by trust?

Mine too, but perhaps the tracking devices are only used if the baby is away from the mother, eg in the Scbu ?

Angrywife · 03/11/2024 21:04

AmandaHoldensLips · 02/11/2024 10:39

I know this isn't the point and might sound ridiculous, but having had a couple of babies myself, I'm wondering how the mothers did not recognise that the baby handed to them was not theirs.

This is so tragic.

I was born early 70s.
Dark hair, dark eyes, my mum said I looked like a little Spanish baby.

I was whisked away to the nursery over night and when they returned me the next day I had little hair and my eyes were blue.
My mum was convinced I wasn't the same baby. Utterly convinced I'd been swapped, but I was the only girl born on the unit that night 🤷‍♀️
People say we look like peas in a pod now, so it's very unlikely I was swapped, but what could a mum have done back then if she'd had any doubts. There were no tests

Trylessonslearned · 03/11/2024 22:10

Still goes on. My grandson born in 2013 and my daughter was handed back the wrong baby after the nurse took him away for something. It was only that my daughter said "That's not my son!", that they realised they had made a mistake!

MissRoseDurward · 03/11/2024 22:12

Personally, I would be wrapping Jessica with love spending huge amount of time with her lavishing love on her and supporting her

How do you know they aren't?

They are respecting Jessica's privacy by not talking about her.

MyMagicStars · 03/11/2024 22:22

Melroses · 02/11/2024 10:35

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023syj/40-minutes-mixed-blessings

It probably happened a lot more than was admitted. This was an interesting documentary from the 1980s showing how two women and their families coped with knowing that their daughters had been swapped - yet not knowing because there was no proof available then.

My mother knew one of the Wheeler brothers- she was just telling my DDs about this the other day!

Dutchhouse14 · 03/11/2024 22:58

I listened to both episodes today, was so interesting and very sad , i do wonder is this has happened before but as yet it hasnt come to light,
I feel for all involved but in particular feel very sad for Jessica.
Jessica hasnt taken a DNA test and has this foisted upon her with no control of the situation.
Clare was obviously happy to find her birth family and the family who bought her up, for all their alleged flaws, have solidly and demonstratively stood by her as their daughter.
Whereas Jessica seems to have been rejected by her biological mum whilst Jean and Tony, no matter what they said about reassuring Jessica, appear by their actions, to be investing a lot more time, love and energy into their relationship with their new found daughter and sister. I agree with PP that they should be smothering Jessica with love and doing everything to rebuild the relationship which I think they said was now strained, although i found the programme fascinating I did feel uncomfortable listening to it without hearing Jessicas voice, and kept wanting to yell at the radio "but what about Jessica"!!

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