The poorest men are most likely to be childless against their will

[Socktopusses]

Really interesting article on BBC News today - especially interesting points around wealth and demographics - the poorest men are most likely to be involuntarily childless

link: BBC article

I'm child-free by choice - but being female, I've always had the comfort of knowing that if I changed my mind, I could have a child by sperm donor, on my own and I'd solve my own problem. (Fertility dependent of course, but in theory). It's up to me, basically.

I've had plenty of discussions with my female friends who want children but are struggling to have them, both those struggling with physical fertility - and single female friends who haven't met the right person at the right time and don't want to do it by themselves.

But I'm ashamed to say that outside of the couples I know undergoing IVF, I've never really thought about childfree-not-by-choice men and what it must be like for them. Particularly single men - who in theory could become fathers but don't have the circumstances. They can't just 'do it by themselves', and they're also not even acknowledged in the statistics.

Do you know any single men who long to be fathers but aren't? Just thought it was interesting.

We already see it. How often are deadbeat dads, largely absent, not contributing financially, treated sympathetically, "his mental health is really bad, he's struggling with depression" or the even MORE infuriating one, "he can't look after his children more becuase of his work hours."

And yet, the moment a woman is less than 8perfect* because of mental health problems, or has to use extra childcare because she doesn't have enough flexibility at work she's accused of not prioritising her children.

The double standards are absolutely rage-inducing.

@Ohhbaby Yes, among my friends and family, I know more women than men who have chosen to be childfree.

With DD(19) and DS (16), DD says that she probably won’t have children, whereas DS does want them.

My DH wanted children and was smitten with DD from the moment she was born, his feelings were very obvious! So I don’t agree that most men just go along with it because their partners want children, I think that a fair number genuinely do want them.

I think what this poster might be referring to is that in OLD, about 20% of the men are attracting about 80% of the women, basically the handsome, professional, dynamic types. The rest of men on OLD struggle to get off the ground. That's why although there are more men than women on these apps, women say they find it hard to find the right quality men, by which they mean the top 20% types. Whether they are unrealistic or not, it's hard to say. I do feel there are quite a lot of absolutely undateable men on the apps, I don't mean on min wage, or a bit rough looking, I mean absolutely undateable in a very obvious way. For starters, women do tend to value intelligence and by the law of averages, some people are going to be very under-average, or very odd looking or very socially inept without the money or the status to overcome that.

This fact is widely acknowledged in incel culture, it's just they are very cross, indeed violent and see different solutions to it (compulsory marriage and kids, anyone?)

I agree with this.

Exactly. @1apenny2apenny as well

@Ohhbaby Wanting kids as an abstract idea, and being an equal + involved parent are two different things. So many men just want the fun bits, leaving the domestic drudgery to women. They don't know anything about children beyond some vague idea that they can do fun stuff. No understanding of the massive risk a woman takes having them. Not much deep thinking involved.

I wouldn't take a man 'wanting kids' seriously unless he has taken steps to not only understand what parenthood involves, but also to be a good husband and father.

Also r.e. women not wanting kids, again, on paper it's obvious why, we give up so much. Not wanting them could mean not ever, or only in the right environment, etc. UK society isn't a conducive environment for motherhood. The shit state of maternity units, toothless CMS, mums often left with their career prospects destroyed and holding the baby when a man fucks off.

Exactly. Many of the replies seem to be missing this point.

There are plenty of people on a low income here too BTW. Just saying..

I was talking to my teen ds and we got on the subject. My ds was saying it’s hard now, lots of social media and girls are saying things like “I won’t consider dating a man unless he’s making 6 figures and over 6ft 2”. I wonder if the conventional dating scene got round that, by finding someone who you found attractive or kind even though they may not be who you would have actively sought out. Now it’s tick boxes online.

you can see why that being the message constantly you can see why you might not feel like you have worth as a potential provider and father figure.

Right, but “I’m looking for a man in finance, 6’5, trust fund, blue eyes” is about as realistic an aspiration for teenage girls as “I only want to date supermodels” is for teenage boys.

That isn’t generally reflective of people’s love lives, or most people would be single.

I remember lots of friends saying things like this 20 Years ago. It’s just one of those dumb things young inexperienced people say. They all settled down with perfectly average men.

So natural selection still works, up to a point. That should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Oh yes I agree it’s the same. But this is what social media is showing them, even early and mid twenties are carrying it on. Love island and all that bollocks. We talk a lot about social media affects on girls, I hadn’t even considered this kind of negative impact on boys. It is going to make you feel a bit shit isn’t it.
along with the OLD tick boxes.
It’s the equivalent of “not being the girl you’d take home to your mother”

@TomatoSandwiches

Obviously the women that give them a chance do not think the same and that is perfectly reasonable, these men are not owed women or children.
If they really wanted marriage and children they would work on themselves.

The fact is that in these two cases no woman has ever given them a chance. Of course that is their prerogative: the men are not owed women and children. Neither would think that for a minute.

I take issue with your final sentence though. I don't see that they should have to pretend to be something that they are not. If it were me, I would be appalled at the suggestion that I had to "work on myself" in order to attract a man. Surely we all want to be accepted and loved for who we are, not have to live our lives pretending that we are someone that we are not?

But this isn't new. It's just been codified in online dating. I knew plenty of women when I was young and single who would onlte date men with a certain profile. And I knew plenty of men who were similar. It was also pretty common to take the mick out of these people (although again, the double standard was rife -men were gently teased for their determination to get hot, younger women, while women were often judged or called "golddiggers" but that's another story).

And as @Saschka points out, lots of people who had those standards did have to compromise - either because they matured out of it, or they had to get real.

when you met people traditionally you would find them attractive despite not being your tick boxes type, or you’d look past their wages as they were kind and you got on well. If it’s just code you don’t get to do that. You’ve written them off before knowing them.
yes some people stuck to their tick list, but most people just found someone they clicked with and accepted whatever form that came in.

Actually, to take my above point further re what people think they want, I have a male friend who I have known since I was a teenager. When we were younger, there was definitely an attraction, plus we got on brilliantly etc. But we never dated. I definitely had a bit of a crush on him but I was sensible enough, even then, to understand that as a friend, he was great, but we couldn't date because he was ALSO a bit of a plonker and he would never date me because I wasn't "cool" enough or "pretty" enough (I was both "cool" and "pretty" but NOT to the standard he dreamed of).

In a rather shame faced manner, he has acknowledged this fact and expressed not regret exactly (because we both know that for lots of OTHER reasons, a long term relationship would NOT have worked out) but certainly a bit of embarassment. But that's who he was in his late teens and early 20s [shrug] and he married a woman who he THOUGHT was basically a prettier, cooler version of me except it turned out she wasn't anything like me at all and the marriage ended. Which was a pity. but his new wife is absolutely lovely and they are really happy so it's all worked out in the end!

The kind of girls saying this are usually influencers; many of whom are models. So they probably aren’t going to date Joe Bloggs who is bang average.

I think the problem here is that a lot of men cannot cope with any kind of rejection - and I think this stems from a sense of entitlement. Why do they think a model should want to date them even if they are average? Online culture indicates that it’s absolutely fine for good looking men to have their pick, yet it’s absolutely unacceptable for women to do the same.

It’s the same problem in this article - boohoo these poor men are childless “against their will”. Why is their “will” so important? Why should they be entitled to a child just because they want one? Why is what they want more important than the wants of a woman who doesn’t want to be with them/have children with them?

There seems to be an acceptance for women that life doesn’t always pan out as you hope, for a variety of different reasons. In contrast, for men like the ones in this article, not getting what you want seems to be considered “unfair”.

Ultimately, these men just don’t respect women and therefore expect their wishes to trump women’s.

Lots of people I know, men and women, did not pursue relationships with people they liked/ were attracted to, because those people did not tick the boxes they wanted. Many grew up and matured and realised they were being silly (as we've discussed) but some didn't.

My point is that there have always been people who only want x or y, notwithstanding actual "niceness" or attraction or whatever. If you haven't met those people, that's great, but I've met man. Probably from years working in legal and financial services in the City.

I thought that too when I read the article.

Improving yourself isn't pretending though, it's looking at what is hindering your desires and in this case taking you out of the acceptable mating pool and learning to overcome them for the better.

These things you mentioned aren't superficial physical characteristics, these are qualities that make forming relatio ships very difficult, but they are the ones that ultimately pay the price so either improve yourself of live with the consequences.

It depends on what is holding you back from a relationship really doesn’t it?

No, you shouldn’t have to pretend you don’t like train-spotting or do love romcoms or whatever it is. But if, like a PP’s friend, the issue is that you are sexually assaulting women on first dates and then harassing them over text afterwards when they don’t want to see you again, then yep that’s something you are going to have to change if you want any chance of a second date.

I'll add to that, essentially men never had to be held to much of a standard, even socially awkward and shy types ended up with a wife because society deemed it necessary. They still don't realise women have moved forward, they have their own requirements for the sacrifice they make to get married and have a man's children.

Women are still in the majority the ones disadvantaged by marriage and raising children, they suffer physically and economically whilst men still benefit overall in these situations so no, I do not feel sorry for the menz that are childfree against their will when they're only wanting the option if they can get the kid along with a slave, sorry I mean wife.

Add to that more women than men are going to university.

I heard this on lbc and as someone that was never fussed and not fussed now if guy has money or not I call bull shit on this for the following reasons.
Even been online dating yiu get from guys oh your personality is great but yiu to big or not my type. So if they are so bloody fussy and wanting God dam super models how desperate are they? Plus many of these men don't date single mums you see facebook groups dedicated to that which would help but no .
Thirdly how many of these dudes turn out to be players for a long time so yes men don't seem to know what they want

I’m a bit surprised that this has come as a surprise to anyone.

I grew up in poverty and I now live in social housing in quite a deprived area. I know, and have known, a lot of women in the most awful of financial circumstances. And I can only think of the odd woman here and there who don’t have children. These women aren’t having children with chartered accountants or surveyors. None of the fathers drive Volvos or shop in Waitrose. They’re always in the same financial situation as the mothers. So if a man is absolutely skint and desperate to have children, it strikes me that there’s more to it than just his financial situation at play here. It also strikes me that men who have difficulties in making themselves attractive to women may often also have similar difficulties in making themselves attractive to employers. And so it’s not really any great shock that they’d be largely poor. I can think of a few men in this financial bracket who want kids but don’t have them. All of them have got issuues unrelated to their bank balance. Also, all of them seem to have a list of requirements a mile long and are completely unrealistic about what they’re looking for.

Essentially, a very long winded way of saying I don’t think they’re childless because they’re poor. Poor men have children left, right and centre. I think they’re childless because the issues that made them poor are the same issues that make them unattractive to potential partners.