The poorest men are most likely to be childless against their will

[Socktopusses]

Really interesting article on BBC News today - especially interesting points around wealth and demographics - the poorest men are most likely to be involuntarily childless

link: BBC article

I'm child-free by choice - but being female, I've always had the comfort of knowing that if I changed my mind, I could have a child by sperm donor, on my own and I'd solve my own problem. (Fertility dependent of course, but in theory). It's up to me, basically.

I've had plenty of discussions with my female friends who want children but are struggling to have them, both those struggling with physical fertility - and single female friends who haven't met the right person at the right time and don't want to do it by themselves.

But I'm ashamed to say that outside of the couples I know undergoing IVF, I've never really thought about childfree-not-by-choice men and what it must be like for them. Particularly single men - who in theory could become fathers but don't have the circumstances. They can't just 'do it by themselves', and they're also not even acknowledged in the statistics.

Do you know any single men who long to be fathers but aren't? Just thought it was interesting.

Yes, of course, and many woman don't want children at all, and same with many men. What I'm saying is, there are lots of women who are desperate to have children, its an all encompassing want. There are few if any men like this.

I’m just saying… there aren’t many billionaires out there…

I agree. In that situation, you'd have to be in charge of basically everything other than their work yourself.

That can be ok if the other partner has enough money to compensate for that, ie if they're OK with you working less while you do all the other stuff. And I think a lot of marriages in the past have worked that way. It just didn't used to matter as much when a young low income couple could get social housing. But now it does.

But there are a wealth of options for women between billionaire, and “50 year old unemployed man”.

Most women in their 30s with anything about them are not going to go for the unemployed 50 year old. Because why would they when they could go for an employed 40 year old? Doesn’t need to be a billionaire to not be “the poorest 5%”. Even somebody on NMW is not in the poorest 5%.

That isn’t “a crisis of masculinity”, as the article states. It is women now having full control over their reproductive, financial and marital status, which they didn’t have even 50 years ago.

Another who is concerned that some will draw the conclusion that women are denying these deserving men their chance to be fathers and that women owe men that chance to fulfil their biological destiny. It sounds dangerously ‘incel’ adjacent to me.

Also agree with others that the ‘rich man marries poor woman’ model is usually based on a ‘deal’ that the man will bring the money and the woman will bring the domestic labour and most of the parenting responsibility. You may or may not agree with that deal but I can see how it might work. Unless poor men are offering the same deal why would rich women (the group mentioned most likely to be childless in Finland, together with poor men) be interested in literally doing it all.

I'm yet to meet a single man who wants a child.

In fact I'd say a good 70% of men in general wouldn't have children given the option, and have gone along with it and realised too late they didn't want to do it (especially not full time).

'most women I know look past income as long as they are a kind, decent person who would be a good father.'

Exactly this. They need to have something going for them. I have had several boyfriends who earned less than me. I'm perfectly capable of providing for a family so it doesn't worry me. However, why would I have a child with someone who also can't cook a meal, use a washing machine, won't pick up some nappies when we run out and forgets to collect the dc from school because he's too busy playing Call of Duty?

Not sure I agree but assuming this is true, why is this the case?

Why would women want to mate with a low income man?

If he hasn't done anything with his life before settling down, he is unlikely to do anything with his life once kids arrive.

I wouldn't touch a man who didn't own his own home, have his own car, and couldn't successfully hold down a long term job.

I know two single men who would like nothing more than to be married and have children. One is nearly 40, the other a few years older.

They are not particularly poor. Both work full-time and one has just bought his first property. But neither are they rich. They are both kind and hardworking, but one is socially awkward and both lack self confidence with women. I have known them both for many years and have never known either to be in a serious relationship.

I feel for them because they both come from large families themselves and I think they would be good and involved fathers, as well as being loving and loyal husbands.

I married a man who was on an average income. I'd still have married him if he'd been on minimum wage, it makes no difference to me.
I married him because he is kind, loyal, trustworthy, never gets angry, lives healthily, doesn't have any problem behaviours, same aims in life, and so on. Men who are doing minimum wage work but who treat women properly should have no trouble finding someone who wants to have children with them. You don't need to go on expensive dates - almost all my dates with my husband were walks.
Unfortunately there are not that many men who want to behave properly. Money is not the main factor.

In fairness, are men really likely to strike up conversation with their friends about their desire for children or otherwise?

They're either assuming that they'll find a partner, or keeping quiet about it. The same way my husband and I kept quiet when trying.

Conversely, the only men I know who have stated an opinion either way are men in relationships who don't want children. And I'd personally consider it rude to ask if not told.

Because most men aren't engineered to be nurturing long term caregivers the way that women are. That's why it's mostly women as midwives, nurses, nursery teachers, nannies, primary school teachers etc. It's also why women are biologically better and more instinctively inclined to respond to high pitched cries, to be woken by their baby in the night. It's even why women have better peripheral vision so they can scan for more dangers for their offspring.

Men don't look at someone's baby and think, "oh I'm jealous I really want one," but they'll look at many other things that way.

Obviously the women that give them a chance do not think the same and that is perfectly reasonable, these men are not owed women or children.
If they really wanted marriage and children they would work on themselves.

Your post only applies to white men. Men of colour are often raised in communities where having children is still something men strive for. For them being poor or disabled or infertile can be just as heartbreaking (and prevent them from participating in society) as it does women.

Rather a stupid article. I think most of those men are incapable of having a relationship with a woman. Could be many reasons. Poor social skills, lack of education or due to generational poverty or just not being particularly nice or attractive people.

No one has a ‘right’ to be a parent. What is the article suggesting? That women should be nice and breed with inadequate men? If they like kids that much, try to foster or adopt or volunteer with them.

The article struck me as sounding a bit like those incels who hate and blame women for not liking them. Tough.

I think the fact that “the lowest 5%” is below NMW is a huge part of this tbh (I looked it up, and FT NMW is lowest 10%).

So why aren’t these single men in FT employment?

Maybe they are disabled, which might mean they are a lovely potential partner, but I’d give serious thought to having kids with somebody too disabled to work in any capacity, as it would be clear that everything would fall to me (and I might also be providing care for my partner in the future)

Maybe they are lazy or feckless - that would be an obvious turn off

Maybe they are criminals and all of their earnings are undeclared - wouldn’t work for me, but I suppose some women like being gangsters’ molls.

Maybe they are depressed, or passive, or have mild LD/SEN and can’t get organised to look for a job - again, I’d feel sympathetic but doesn’t sound like great partner or dad material.

Yeah but they dont want children for nurturing and caring reasons which is what @yeaitsmeagain was saying. Rather, it's a status symbol. I'm of South Asian descent btw.

Most men want kids the way a toddler wants a puppy. They have no idea how much hard work it is, and even if they do, they think all the drudgery is a woman's job. They have a rosy image of playing with kids taking them to hobbies etc.

Also, the biggest thing is, they have very little empathy regarding how big a decision it is for women. Our entire lives - health, earning capacity, etc are at risk.

Simply put, there is no way I would ever have a baby with a low-income man because he would have to be the primary caregiver, and if we separated, the courts would grant him primary custody.

My experience of most men is that 'having children' just isn't something they really think about. Certainly not something that most of them long for desperately.

When I met DH he was in his 40s and quite liked kids, despite never having spent time with any. When I asked it he wanted children of his own he looked vaguely surprised and said, 'I never really thought about it. I wouldn't mind'.

He's been an excellent father, but I suspect he'd have happily pottered along child free if he hadn't met me.

I think there's a good argument that men can be more ambivalent about kids because in the vast majority of cases they don't do as much parenting as the child's mother so parenthood actually impacts them far less. And actually, maybe we shouldn't be surprised that women seem to be copping on to this and the fact that parenting is at least 75% a thankless admin job with ever increasing demands driven by societal expectations. Parenting these days is SO intense and you can only step outside the norms so far.

Interesting article. It actually has always annoyed me how fertility is measured as a woman's issue, as if only women are the ones affected by children. Good to see research widening that gap.

Of the single people in their 30s that I know anecdotally, the men who want a family mainly want a wife, and they would be happy to have children as part of the deal. The women mainly want children, but in the context of a loving relationship. Taken all together, a happy life for both sets would include a nice relationship with children.

It's interesting that poorer women don't have the same problem, but it does make sense that if you're an older man and don't earn well, you're unlikely to be attractive to a woman actively looking for marriage, mortgage and children, all of which needs financial stability. I personally wouldn't go on a blind date with a man who earned under 20k a year without possibility of progression, because I know that our lives would always be hard, and hard lives strain relationships. When I was younger this stuff just didn't matter. I just wanted someone who I loved spending time with, the future felt wide open, like anyone could go on to do and be anything they wanted. In my mid 30s and after experiencing the bitterness that comes with the wild spirited men growing up, I want someone who doesn't depend solely on me to make ends meet.

Worry not, word about town is David Lammy has a crack team working on the technology for men to be able to grow a cervix.

I think a lot of those impoverished men saying they want kids are just saying they want a woman! They don't want to adopt a disadvantaged child and raise them alone in their hostel room.
They want a women with a house and money and if they have a kid with them then they think they'll get sex and a home and cleaner/cook.

There is no way I would have four children and I know hardly any women who do. If he’s saying that on dating apps it will put many people off him.