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Sir Keir Starmer and the budget

172 replies

disappointed101 · 26/10/2024 07:53

Can someone explain in layman‘s teens how “The middle” will be affected by the budget? We are comfortable but not stinking rich by any means. Reading what people are saying makes me feel sick. We have a good disposable income due to almost being mortgage free, older kids etc but don’t spend on luxury items save for holidays. Is it even worth working at this point? Is it worth having savings or should we spend our savings and upsize in property? I’m so worried he’s coming for everything we have worked for in the past 20 years.

OP posts:
rooshoe · 26/10/2024 11:05

Beezknees · 26/10/2024 10:44

What do you mean "is it worth working?" Why do people say these ridiculous things as if it's an option to choose not to work and you just get given everything? It is not, that's not how the system goes.

Surely the poster meant that if their assets are going to be taxed, they might as well stop working and spend their (liquidated) assets to avoid the tax, rather than work, be taxed on it and be taxed on the saved assets too? Makes sense to me.

Rummly · 26/10/2024 11:06

Wetellyourstory · 26/10/2024 11:02

You may not get both cheaper FTB properties and rental, if that’s what you are hoping for in a housing market shake up via anything due to be included in the budget. If landlords are inclined sell up, making houses available for FTB’s, all that will do is increase rental prices (supply and demand) but possibly reduce house prices for the same reason. Sounds great for FTB but could push many others into negative equity, stopping people moving up the housing ladder, thereby slowing the housing market down. Increase rental costs will have a huge impact on the younger generation, making university even more expensive.

I see that. Any changes would have to be very careful and no doubt cautious.

But I do believe housing is a bigger and more pressing issue than pretty much anything else, including the NHS.

yeaitsmeagain · 26/10/2024 11:07

hamstersarse · 26/10/2024 10:06

“You will own nothing and be happy”

I'm a lot happier ever since my house wasn't filled floor to ceiling with DVD cases - films I never really watched enough to justify the amount of cost and space - same goes for cook books which look nice and the same 3 recipes I use that I can get online anyway, all the hassle and cost of owning and running a car when I can get an Uber the rare instances I need one (because of great public transport where I live), having to buy all the software tools I need for my job on physical discs that just ended up in landfill in an endless cycle every time a new one came out, and using my local library for both books and ebooks.

I don't feel the need to own stuff and clutter any more. It's freeing. I have access to better and cheaper versions of everything I used to have to buy and own, and store, and clean, and Tetris around my house because there was no space, and endlessly trying to tidy up for visitors, and endlessly listing shit on eBay or taking it to charity shops because there was always stuff, stuff, stuff everywhere requiring my time and energy.

It's made me focus a lot more experiences and spending time with people in meaningful ways. It's made me less consumer-y and wasteful. It's taken a mental load off. Thoroughly recommend.

Interested in this thread?

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yeaitsmeagain · 26/10/2024 11:09

This budget is going to affect you less than Liz Truss's, and you survived that.

CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 11:11

@disappointed101 Out of interest, why do you call him "Sir Keir Starmer", rather than Starmer, or the Prime Minister? Or even just Keir, although I don't like using first names for politicians.

Flapjacker48 · 26/10/2024 11:15

@CurlewKate

It something that the right wing press/media always do (i.e telegraph/GB News), so I presume those who do it in their post are aping that style - based on mad delusions that people who see "Sir" will think "oh Gosh he isnt working class is he"

ViciousCurrentBun · 26/10/2024 11:16

I am a true case of social mobility, this was not just a poor family, it was dysfunctional enough to have social services involved. Some of my relatives have been in prison, they are scum quite frankly. I am exactly the kind of person who could possibly be penalised by this budget. But it’s not worth worrying about.

People really need to up their critical thinking skills, understanding people have different opinions however unpalatable is the only way progress can really be made.

ChanelBoucle · 26/10/2024 11:18

Blimey, the right wing press really is doing a number on seemingly intelligent people it seems.

CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 11:21

@Flapjacker48 Indeed. I was hoping to hear the OP trying to justify her choice, though!😉

Bunnycat101 · 26/10/2024 11:22

The bit that worries me most is not the personal tax stuff it’s the employer NI. There are so many companies who are not making a profit at the moment especially pretty big retailers. There will be companies that go bust if they have to find a significant chunk of NI and living wage rises.

ViciousCurrentBun · 26/10/2024 11:26

@Rummly if anything expect even more expensive rentals. Quite a few small landlords have or are selling up due to legislative changes or changing to air BnB and massive institutions such as banks are buying up and becoming Landlords.

My friend rented out her Mums house for 7 years when the tenant left last year she decided not to rent it out again due to the changes. It takes one bad tenant that’s all. She would rather it be empty and used for holidays than risk not being able to get rid of a bad tenant. Is that morale? Probably not. Accidental small landlords like her are nervous.

Roundthebend45 · 26/10/2024 11:30

Restlessinthenorth · 26/10/2024 09:30

Interesting to see how you want to move the debate away from what it started about. That yes, normal hardworking people like me and my family are likely to be in penalised by this government based on what we are hearing so far. You say "you say you are a nurse" like you don't believe me? Well i certainly am. And giving me a pay rise and then taxing me more isn't helping me. And for what's it's worth, I see NO signs that the current government will do anything to improve the NHS. Their current public consultation is absolutely laughable and an insult to the professionals working within it. Let's see where we are in four years and see what has improved. I'd be happy to put my money where my mouth is and say things will be much much worse

Can you let me know what the previous government did for ‘normal hardworking people’? I’m a bit confused as I can’t think of anything they did except screw the country over and steal a lot of money….

And as for not seeing any changes on the NHS yet - the current government have been power for how long exactly? Since July… so that’s barely 4 months. Give them a flipping chance - you can’t just fix the last 14 years of decimation of public service (and everything else) caused by the previous government in 4 months!

DancingPhantomsOnTheTerrace · 26/10/2024 11:35

We’re all worried OP, it’s safe to ignore those sneering at your concerns on this thread, they’re not representative of wider public opinion.

It's natural to be concerned about unknown financial news. But the "he's coming for everything!!" & "what's the point in working" comments are slightly hysterical.

There's also next to no point in speculating. Some things have been ruled out, some have been speculated on more than others, but give it 97 hours or so and we'll know for sure.

MaidOfAle · 26/10/2024 11:42

Binkybonkybilly · 26/10/2024 09:34

The issue is that the government wants everyone to work longer. So if you are saving, and investing (and that includes pensions), you will pay more tax on this.
Which will mean if you thought you could retire at, for example, 60, you will no longer be able to.

If you’ve been frugal in order to achieve this then it will feel like a blow.

If you’ve get paid in salary + stocks in the company you work for, these will be taxed more heavily. Lots of people have this arrangement. It’s irritating to be told you don’t work for it. It’s not like there’s a choice in how you get paid.

There will be consequences for going after people in this way. Unfortunately, there seems little understanding of the ripple effect this will have. I’m not sure the poorest will feel better off at all.

I voted for them. They talked of long term plans. I see no evidence of this. I await the budget with little hope it will help anyone significantly.

If you’ve get paid in salary + stocks in the company you work for, these will be taxed more heavily. Lots of people have this arrangement. It’s irritating to be told you don’t work for it. It’s not like there’s a choice in how you get paid.

You do have a choice because other employers exist who pay salary only. You didn't have to take that job. Let's be honest here: payment in stocks is a tax dodge and that loophole will be tightened.

The issue is that the government wants everyone to work longer.

With falling birth rates and an aging population, it's not about what the Govt wants but what the nation can afford.

tl;dr: Pensions are Ponzi schemes that only work if birthrates stay high and lifespans stay fairly short. As birth rates fall and lifespans lengthen, the Govt has to act to increase the ratio of workers to retirees or the Ponzi schemes will collapse completely.

The long explanation: Most people's pensions are based on investments, right? What we call investing is basically a way to get other people to give you money by them working and paying you money every year in return for you providing some money upfront, with the risk that you might get zero payment if the workers' efforts fail. For the investee, investing is like a loan but the principal can never be repaid, only endless interest unless their business folds.

There are fewer people being born whilst the population of retirees gets ever-larger as people die later. This means that there are fewer people working to generate dividends, which are the payments I described as "endless interest", whilst the number of people trying to live on those dividends increases.

Ever since the invention of both the State pension and private pension schemes, the people currently working have always paid for the living costs of the people currently retired, with an expectation that we'll get the same deal when our retirement comes. The pension pot is an actuarial fiction to calculate individual entitlements to payments from a scheme; there isn't a bank vault with your name on it somewhere holding all the money you've ever paid in, to be paid out to you later, even though some people talk about "their pot" as though it is a pile money reserved exclusively for them. That money has already been spent on shares and other investment instruments to earn dividends now, so that the current dividends of everyone in your pension scheme are paying for current retirees. It is future dividends, including dividends earned on the contributions of people still working after you've retired, that will pay for you when you retire.

With fewer people of working age and more retirees (plus other macroeconomic factors like oil and tobacco companies no longer being the safe long-term investments that they once were and schemes coming under pressure to avoid arms companies, another safe investment because countries are always going to have armies, on ethical grounds), there will come a time when the dividends earned by pension schemes simply won't be enough to pay for all the retirees. A responsible government tries to preempt that early on by raising State retirement ages a little bit at a time and taking steps to deter people from using private pension schemes to retire early. This might feel unfair to individuals, I know that I'm not happy about having to work for longer, but the alternative is national socio-economic collapse.

WorriedRelative · 26/10/2024 11:52

rooshoe · 26/10/2024 11:05

Surely the poster meant that if their assets are going to be taxed, they might as well stop working and spend their (liquidated) assets to avoid the tax, rather than work, be taxed on it and be taxed on the saved assets too? Makes sense to me.

If they genuinely think they would be better off doing that then they should do so, we need people to spend a bit more rather than saving to keep businesses going.

However there are no plans to tax savings, only interest on savings 🙄

Restlessinthenorth · 26/10/2024 11:54

@Roundthebend45 why do you presume I am a Tory? I voted labour and I now regret it. But for what's it's worth...what the Tory's didn't do is take away winter fuel allowance from pensioners which will have a severe and direct impact on NHS services this winter, or decide that members of my family aren't within their definition of "working people", showing utter distain for folk who have worked for decades and tried to be wise and invest in their future. Nor did they suggest "work coaches" should be deployed into mental health wards where people are literally denied their liberty so severe is their illness. I could go on.

dottiehens · 26/10/2024 12:26

The problem is that people are already paying income taxes that are too high for not much in return. There is not much more room for taxes. At some point this becomes theft and along with the ideology that some Labour MPs are throwing out there people are freaking out. Worse of all some feel entitled to what other people have earned. Then there is the problem of how they use the taxes raised. I just read something about reparations for slavery. Really why do not we concern ourselves about the modern day slavery happening right before our eyes? People are pearl clutching about the boats but how many are coming to be put to work as slaves here as we speak.

CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 12:28

@Restlessinthenorth "why do you presume I am a Tory? I voted labour and I now regret it."

Can you explain why you regret it? What were you expecting? And what do you think the Tories would have done better?

Wn38475 · 26/10/2024 12:30

FloralGums · 26/10/2024 09:34

I wish the Tory social media team would butt out of MN. There are so many blatant propaganda posts on here now, it’s getting too much.

You need to make a report to MNHQ if you genuinely think that’s the case.

Christmaschristingle · 26/10/2024 12:32

"shafted"

minisomum · 26/10/2024 12:34

Bunnycat101 · 26/10/2024 11:22

The bit that worries me most is not the personal tax stuff it’s the employer NI. There are so many companies who are not making a profit at the moment especially pretty big retailers. There will be companies that go bust if they have to find a significant chunk of NI and living wage rises.

This. I work for a small company and we are touch and go with our finances at the moment. A 2% increase in our wage bill is a real concern, and even if we find the money, that will almost definitely mean no pay rises this year for our staff. So how is this not affecting working people?

Christmaschristingle · 26/10/2024 12:36

@Flapjacker48 people have worked hard as cleaners and in low paid jobs and thru the 2006 credit crisis through all the other huge money pits since then and now and raised dc on freecyle and charity shops and yellow sticker food
After nealry 20 years they are coming up for air wifh a tiny bit of slack in their budget for once and now they are not classified as working people

Restlessinthenorth · 26/10/2024 12:41

CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 12:28

@Restlessinthenorth "why do you presume I am a Tory? I voted labour and I now regret it."

Can you explain why you regret it? What were you expecting? And what do you think the Tories would have done better?

I think I made it clear in my post the things I disagree with. Which is a decent list in four months in power

CurlewKate · 26/10/2024 12:47

@Restlessinthenorth "I think I made it clear in my post the things I disagree with. Which is a decent list in four months in power"

What do you think the Tories would have done?

What do you think Labour should have done?

Whenim63 · 26/10/2024 12:48

I don’t know if Free Gear Kier has the intention to seriously piss off a proportion of the electorate or if he’s just lacking in political nous but the budget isn’t even out and I am already irritated. According to Mr Freebie I’m not classed as a “working person”. If that’s the case, can I stop paying a metric fuck ton of tax?? No? Thought not.

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