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Lucy letby trial enquiry podcast by daily mail listened on alexa

18 replies

Hunnymonster1 · 20/10/2024 19:29

Ok so i like to listen to podcasts while I'm in the kitchen. Anyway, I ask alexa for a random one, and it brings me up the trial of lucy.Let bay the final episode is about the inquiry afterwards.
I'm just can't understand how so many people seem to think she is innocent because listening to this inquiry and what they have asked, I don't know you know
First of all, while she was a student nurse, the trainer said that she didn't think she was gonna be good enough for her practical abilities and the fact that emotionally she didn't seem to have what was taken to be on a baby and childrens unit.
This trainer failed her and the working relationship broke down, but another nurse mentored her and she did an extra four weeks and eventually got passed to become a childrens nurse. Just heard the nurses confirming this at the inquiry this isn't the trial.
So her capabilities already very much in question and the way they worded, it was that you have to have the right sort of personality to work in a children's unit and one of the nurses that's who fell out with her who was training the student nurses didn't think she cut it as I said. Nevertheless, she apparently was a good worker and was favoriteed. Buy the nurse manager of the unit, although she said she wasn't.
She made a few drug errors like give more morphine then should have but the manager said a few nurses did that and wasn't fatal , ok then.
But here's the thing that gets me a couple of nurses reported this and even her old trainer that failed her heard her in break room quite gossipy excited explaining how one of the triplets had died.
Like that there in a nutshell a normal reaction to a babh death is not gossipy excitement is it it's to talk about it in more professional.
Peole said that she came across a bit cold to putting it down to her being a single child.
I haven't read tye evidence that suggests she's innocent but maybe she wasn't great at reading instructions with medicines as happened a few times and as the teacher of her suggested wasn't as good as she should have been for the job. So maybe deaths might have been accidents or more sinister the fact that I can't shake when they said in the inquiry that she was excited and gossiping quite gleeful about a child that died like you would a date etc
Oh yes forgot how she liked to be in the family room when the family were with dead chikd like she wasn't looking after the baby, that she had to look after apparently that developed sepsis, because she took her eyes off that baby, because it seemed to the other nurses that she was more bothered about the dead baby.So maybe she really was obsessed with death, so I just don't get all this.She's innocent.
I haven't read everything or heard everything but another thing that did come out was that the nurses we're going to stick by there. Own people because they saw that they were against the consultants.So that really isn't a great working relationship in the hospital.Is it anywhere, have you heard this podcast?Tell me what you think

OP posts:
Hunnymonster1 · 20/10/2024 19:54

Unfortunately it's daily mail but it was good

OP posts:
BattedAnEyebrow · 20/10/2024 19:57

No I haven't but I read this about the statistics.

www.ft.com/content/6797b800-3fe8-4144-b63d-435ae52ba157

Hunnymonster1 · 20/10/2024 20:00

BattedAnEyebrow · 20/10/2024 19:57

No I haven't but I read this about the statistics.

www.ft.com/content/6797b800-3fe8-4144-b63d-435ae52ba157

Can’t see as got a paywall

OP posts:
BattedAnEyebrow · 20/10/2024 20:09

Really! Confused I read it without any problems.

The public inquiry into infant deaths at a hospital in England begins next week amid a growing debate around the scientific evidence used to convict former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of their murder. Letby, found to be one of Britain’s deadliest child serial killers, was sentenced in August last year to life imprisonment for murdering seven babies and attempting to end the lives of six more between 2015 and 2016. She was convicted of a further attempted murder in a recent retrial. Last year, the UK government announced an independent statutory inquiry into the circumstances surrounding her crimes at the public Countess of Chester hospital.

Letby has a new legal team and is planning to apply for another appeal at the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the body responsible for investigating potential miscarriages of justice, according to her lawyer. The inquiry begins on Tuesday against the backdrop of concerns from expert commentators, statisticians and medical practitioners over Letby’s conviction, highlighting long-standing questions over the use and presentation of scientific data in her trial. Many specialists have stressed they are not arguing that Letby is innocent, but rather that the evidence against her may not have reached the criminal standard of “beyond reasonable doubt”. They also pointed out that they had not seen all the evidence and proceedings viewed by the jury.

The inquiry, led by Lady Justice Thirlwall, aims to determine whether suspicions over the deaths should have been raised earlier by hospital staff, and how NHS managers responded to clinicians’ concerns months before Letby’s arrest. The proceedings will also look at whether the police or other external bodies should have been informed of events in the ward sooner.

In July, a group of neonatal doctors, nurses and statisticians wrote to ministers urging them to postpone the inquiry or change its terms of reference, expressing concerns over how medical and other data had been used in court. Stressing they did not want to relitigate the case, the signatories said they were focused on “patient safety, healthcare management, and the potential for miscarriages of justice in complex medical cases”. “We believe that legal systems are particularly vulnerable to errors when dealing with intricate scientific evidence, especially in cases involving statistical anomalies in healthcare settings, and the complex physiology of neonates,” they wrote.

A spokesperson for the inquiry said it would “follow the terms of reference set by the secretary of state”. Experts are often particularly important in cases of alleged medical misconduct because of the range of evidence involved in these hearings — and the risk it can be misunderstood. “Statistical evidence, however misleading, can often seem convincing,” said Philip Dawid, emeritus professor of statistics at Cambridge university. “It’s quite hard to bring out the subtleties and show that apparently obvious interpretations are not to be trusted.”

Speaking in a personal capacity, Hall said he did not believe Letby had been given a “fair trial” because the jury did not hear from medical expert witnesses who would challenge the prosecution’s arguments. “How can a jury determine how credible the prosecution case is if they have nothing to compare it with?” he added. Hall said he would have raised concerns over the prosecution’s claim that skin discolouration found in some of the babies was evidence they had been injected with air.

He added that the argument was primarily based on academic research on the consequences of oxygen entering babies’ bodies via the lung, when it was alleged that some victims had air injected into a peripheral vein. Air, largely composed of nitrogen, is processed differently by the body from pure oxygen. “I do think the relationship between the courts and medicine is an uncomfortable one because, as far as I know, judges are not trained in evidence-based medicine,” Hall noted, adding that the interface between medicine and the law “bears further scrutiny”. Letby’s solicitors in her initial trial declined to comment, citing legal privilege.

Notes written by Letby, used as evidence of her guilt, have also been queried. The Guardian newspaper reported this week that these were made on the advice of hospital mental health counsellors as a way of coping with stress.

Letby had scribbled: “I am evil I did this” and “I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough to care for them and I am a horrible evil person.” She also wrote: “I haven’t done anything wrong” and “I feel very alone + scared”.

An explanation as to why these notes were written was never cited by her defence team during the original trial. A government spokesperson said: “This was a horrendous case and there were clear failings across the NHS and with regulators”. The inquiry would “review all aspects of the case”, they added.

Doggymummar · 20/10/2024 20:12

Financial times is paywalked but you can use 12ft ladder

LoafofSellotape · 20/10/2024 20:14

BattedAnEyebrow · 20/10/2024 19:57

No I haven't but I read this about the statistics.

www.ft.com/content/6797b800-3fe8-4144-b63d-435ae52ba157

I can't read that either.

LoafofSellotape · 20/10/2024 20:15

I listened to the whole trial , I have no idea how anyone thinks she's innocent.

Hunnymonster1 · 20/10/2024 20:18

@BattedAnEyebrow just read that article thanks for copying it it is the inquiry that was on this week that I heard podcast about will be on next week to and they will sum that week up to. That’s why the bit of her being excited and gossiping about a dead baby I was like what the f as that’s not normal and other nurses thought similar in break room

OP posts:
Hunnymonster1 · 20/10/2024 20:20

LoafofSellotape · 20/10/2024 20:15

I listened to the whole trial , I have no idea how anyone thinks she's innocent.

Haven’t heard all the trial but as I say the podcast of last weeks inquiry which is still on had a few things that came out the teacher nurse thinking her as a student wouldn’t pass the but needed to be a children’s nurse but another nurse said she’s ok. So that shows wasn’t the best and then the gossiping about dead baby and overheard that made me think

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kkloo · 25/10/2024 20:09

The inquiry is working from the standpoint that she was guilty so they're of course bringing everything back to her.
But if you actually read all the documents you will see that there is so much that shows that the hospital was just a disaster.

For one of the parents in their statement to the inquiry it's just a long list of things that the hospital handled badly...and then towards the end it's kind of like 'ah but you weren't aware that LL was working that day were you'? Not those exact words but that's how it came across.

It's like ok we'll ignore the elephant in the room about how there was all these million and one issues with the standard of care and just bring it back to Letby.

Yes there were instances where she came across as cold but other instances where she came across as very warm and very empathetic.

In one of the sets of parents testimony they actually said that there was another nurse who was extremely cold and inappropriate, the mother said that after dealing with that nurse that she actually turned to her husband and said that that particular nurse had harmed their baby. Her husband also said that that nurse was cold and inappropriate. And both the mother and father of that baby said that Letby was the opposite, the dad said she hugged the mother when the baby was being transferred (possibly even gave her a kiss) and that she wished them well.
So if it had been the other nurse on trial then that would have been seen as proof that she was a killer because she was very cold in contrast to the nice, warm nurse who in that case was LL.

Lincoln24 · 25/10/2024 20:11

I totally agree with you, I don't understand how or why people tie themselves in knots (as it seems to me) to make themselves believe she's innocent.

GiraffeTree · 25/10/2024 20:15

Hunnymonster1 · 20/10/2024 20:18

@BattedAnEyebrow just read that article thanks for copying it it is the inquiry that was on this week that I heard podcast about will be on next week to and they will sum that week up to. That’s why the bit of her being excited and gossiping about a dead baby I was like what the f as that’s not normal and other nurses thought similar in break room

But gossiping about a baby's death isn't proof that she's a killer. It just shows that she's not a nice person. The problem with this case is that it lacks incontrovertible evidence. The evidence is largely circumstantial.

I don't know whether she's guilty or not. I don't think there's enough evidence to be certain either way.

ColonelRhubarbBikini · 25/10/2024 20:22

I listened to the whole podcast and have read the NYT article that was blocked from publication in the UK and honestly I really don’t know either way. There is no ‘smoking gun’, no unequivocal piece of evidence that proves one way or another. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that can be interpreted in different ways. I lean more towards her guilt but there is a shred of doubt there.

kkloo · 25/10/2024 20:22

I have listened to parts of that podcast and didn't bother after that because it very much chooses the damning soundbites.

I believe it was this baby that I mentioned earlier whose mother detailed all of the things wrong with the babys care when she was there, a long catalogue of issues. The podcast would focus on things like this, the baby was left in that state while under Letbys care.

However when the mother found the baby like that there were 2 other nurses in the room with her and the mother asked something like how could they leave her like that.

But of course the news stories that go around are that Letby was the one who left her like that, and that's the kind of thing that the podcast focuses on.

According to this article https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/23/lucy-letby-inquiry-chester-hospital-baby-stoma

The parents of an extremely vulnerable newborn girl have said they were disgusted to find her “covered in her own faeces” while under the care of the nurse Lucy Letby..........

The child’s mother described finding her six-week-old daughter in a cot with her stoma bag removed and her lower half covered loosely with a soiled towel.
“I just took one look at her and was just disgusted really to see her in that situation, and also incredibly saddened being a mum in that situation thinking ‘what’s happened here?’,” she said.

The article doesn't print the next part of the statement which said...... and thinking: what's happened here, and there were two nurses in the room at the time and they could see that she was in that situation and I just said, you know -- I think one of them was pregnant and I knew the other one had children and I said "You are mums, what would you do in this situation? Why has she been left like this?" They didn't really engage in discussion and we made a complaint on that day

Letby was the designated nurse but she wasn't the nurse there when the mother found her baby like that.

The BBC headline was that Baby cared for by Letby 'was wrapped in dirty towel'

That's why people have doubts. The things focused on in newspaper articles and also on that podcast are the things that are damning toward Letby but they leave out a lot of other detail.

Parents found baby under Lucy Letby’s care covered in faeces

Inquiry into murder of babies at the Countess of Chester hospital hears about newborn girl fitted with stoma

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/23/lucy-letby-inquiry-chester-hospital-baby-stoma

Bigpaintinglittlepainting · 25/10/2024 20:27

Ffs there is physical evidence that she killed babies and consultants and nurses that were discussing her. She was taken off duty and soooooo much evidence

Still people are like, oh no she didn't get a fair trial Biscuit

kkloo · 25/10/2024 20:31

@Bigpaintinglittlepainting
There's no evidence that any babies were actually murdered.
And if the evidence was as strong as you think then no one would be doubting it!!

NotOneOfTheInCrowd · 25/10/2024 20:44

She’s guilty as fuck. And she lost her latest appeal this week, and more deaths are being investigated.

but she has quite the fan club round here. Likekthe types who write to the likes of Levi bellfield.

kkloo · 25/10/2024 22:01

@NotOneOfTheInCrowd It's not a fan club. Being unconvinced by the evidence is just looking at the case and it's not really anything to do with her as a person.

Not that that will stop the immature comments, which say a lot more about you than they do about anyone else!!!

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