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Some of the prospective Tory leadership candidates want to us to…

225 replies

Crystalbits · 01/10/2024 18:07

Leave the ECHR. Can anyone explain if this is a good thing. I mean there must be some logic to it. Robert Jenrick was Minister of State for Immigration, surely he knows the facts. Please explain this to me like it’s an idiots guide !

OP posts:
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Whatfreshhellisthis2 · 01/10/2024 18:11

Well it was devised by British lawyers and the UK was the first country to ratify it, so I think we can say that British values and standards are a core part of it.

so unless you want to step away from British values it’s probably best to keep it.

its one of the things the UK can actually be proud of contributing the international community

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/10/2024 18:13

They are trying to scare us into abandoning our rights. Scary shit.😱

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 18:14

They want to reduce human rights - that's never a good idea.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Crystalbits · 01/10/2024 18:17

Wouldn’t put it past them tbh.

OP posts:
Whatfreshhellisthis2 · 01/10/2024 18:17

https://consoc.org.uk/leaving-the-echr/

this article is a good summary.

The Tories think leaving means we’d have control of our borders, but brexit should be enough to tell you that withdrawing from international treaties often doesn’t solve the issue it’s intended to fix and brings a whole load of new problems

Leaving the ECHR: A Realistic and Viable Proposal?  - The Constitution Society

Jane Richards investigates what the UK exiting the European Convention on Human Rights would actually require and asks if this is viable.

https://consoc.org.uk/leaving-the-echr

Crystalbits · 01/10/2024 18:22

@Whatfreshhellisthis2 thanks for that !

OP posts:
pointythings · 01/10/2024 18:27

Crystalbits · 01/10/2024 18:07

Leave the ECHR. Can anyone explain if this is a good thing. I mean there must be some logic to it. Robert Jenrick was Minister of State for Immigration, surely he knows the facts. Please explain this to me like it’s an idiots guide !

Robert Jenrick was the man who ordered cheerful murals in an asylum centre for children painted over because they were 'too welcoming'. If anyone thinks he's right about anything at all, give your head a wobble.

The ECHR supports your rights - your rights to safe working conditions, healthcare, education, freedom to speak out. What do you think the likes of Jenrick will do once they get their wish and see those rights removed? It won't be just immigrants who will be affected. It will be everyone.

DuncinToffee · 01/10/2024 18:32

And dire consequences for Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement

Some of the prospective Tory leadership candidates want to us to…
DuncinToffee · 01/10/2024 19:00

Dominic Grieve, former Attorney General and Conservative MP

The way the ECHR is applied may at times irritate and as in all human affairs no court will always be perfect in its reasoning and decisions. But the ECHR has done immense good throughout Europe. Precisely because it is a " living instrument", it has been able to promote human rights. We take for granted today that illegitimate children should not suffer discrimination and that homosexual relationships should not be criminalised. But delivering these reforms is just some of the good work of the ECHR. As Churchill saw, it's drafting and promotion has been one of the great achievements of UK soft power for the common good of all. At the end of his video, Jenrick gratuitously offers an irrelevant image which is intended, I infer, to show an immigrant gloating over money he is getting. The only purpose of this is to stir up hatred against immigrants. That is why we need the ECHR. It is also why he is showing himself entirely unfit for office.

https://x.com/dominicgrieve_/status/1841038074500759848

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/10/2024 20:12

DuncinToffee · 01/10/2024 18:32

And dire consequences for Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement

I can't believe the cheek of the Tories, clinging to the name Conservative and Unionist Party when they've done more damage to the Union than any other political party in the 21st century.Hmm And I include Sinn Fein in that.

AgnesX · 01/10/2024 20:20

Government can change UK law to serve it's own interests - which are not the same as the people's. It would be a retrograde step.

They can't do that to European law, certainly not easily anyway.

TooBigForMyBoots · 02/10/2024 00:53

pointythings · 01/10/2024 18:27

Robert Jenrick was the man who ordered cheerful murals in an asylum centre for children painted over because they were 'too welcoming'. If anyone thinks he's right about anything at all, give your head a wobble.

The ECHR supports your rights - your rights to safe working conditions, healthcare, education, freedom to speak out. What do you think the likes of Jenrick will do once they get their wish and see those rights removed? It won't be just immigrants who will be affected. It will be everyone.

Edited

Yes, his MO is performative, petty cruelty at the tax payers' expense.

@Crystalbits the deafening silence of Tory Mnetters on this thread tells you all you need to know about what a stupid idea it is.🙊

Paisleydad · 02/10/2024 01:10

Because the 'E' stands for 'European' it should be abandoned immediately. Its dangerous and yucky and foreign. It probably means that we'll all have to speak German or French or something. Or not be allowed to have pictures of the Queen / King on our money.

Manchegos · 02/10/2024 01:18

The idea behind leaving is that we should be able to disregard the human rights of people deemed unworthy of them.

Tories who support this might say, isn’t it ridiculous people like the following have to have human rights? Let’s get out of ECHR so we can fire these cretins into the sun:

  • pedophiles
  • asylum seekers
  • illegal immigrants
  • Lucy Letby
  • etc

Thats how it’s sold to the public. Leaving would allow us to be nastier to people the general public agree deserve nothing but nastiness.

In reality though it would mean those running the show could, and would, be nastier to us all.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/10/2024 01:29

Leaving the ECHR is also invariably a demand of the few morons who genuinely advocate for the return of Capital Punishment.

It's another great example of "leopards eating people's faces" in the same vein as Brexit.

People happy to go off and out of sheer spite, vote for changes that make someone else's life an order of magnitude worse, only to then turn around and complain once it dawns on them that they've just been fired and have zero recourse due to decimation of employment law, or they suddenly find themselves being tried in a kangaroo court with no proper representation, or their kids are kicked out of school at 16 due to lack of funding and the only response to their complaint is "get a job".

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 02/10/2024 01:31

Yes, there is some logic to it.

The logic is that Robert Jenrick believes that he needs to sound as close to Reform as possible so that the right wing of the Tory party will elect him as their leader. He knows that arguing against basic human rights will go down well with that wing of the party and he will say anything in order to achieve his ambition.

RamblinRosie · 02/10/2024 02:28

Jenrick and Reform are deliberately conflating the ECHR with the EU, two totally separate entities. As Jenrick with his Cambridge history degree should know. Maybe Reform are less informed… Anything with European in its title is fair game.

EHCR was established in 1950, to set human rights standards, with the UK as the major contributor to the legislation.

The EEC was established in1957, mainly as a trade union. Totally separate entities as evinced by the fact that leaving the EU still leaves us as part of the ECHR.

It’s “dog whistle” politics.

Manchegos · 02/10/2024 10:13

Just want to bump this to see if anyone will come with any advantages to leaving the ECHR? Would genuinely be interested to hear reasoned arguments for it.

Mittens67 · 02/10/2024 10:44

Tories favour deregulation in general so that they can screw over ordinary people and boost the rich. They hide this with the nonsense like trickle down economics. They popularise stealth theft of our hard won rights and protections by stirring up xenophobia and misplaced indignation that someone else is telling us what to do as per Brexit.
This is just them wanting more power to do whatever they want.

candlewhickgreen · 02/10/2024 11:09

Manchegos · 02/10/2024 10:13

Just want to bump this to see if anyone will come with any advantages to leaving the ECHR? Would genuinely be interested to hear reasoned arguments for it.

They want us to have fewer rights and no access to the European Court so they can't be challenged.

Whatfreshhellisthis2 · 02/10/2024 12:33

Manchegos · 02/10/2024 10:13

Just want to bump this to see if anyone will come with any advantages to leaving the ECHR? Would genuinely be interested to hear reasoned arguments for it.

Me too.

Personally I think the fact the Reform party is its biggest supporter gives you the ‘dog whistle’ reason. I think they’d say it will stop migrants coming to the UK ( in the same way that leaving the EU meant no one could tell the brits what a banana was)

and there hasn’t been one person coming on here to say how their life would be so much better if it was abolished.

Technically, it’s an international treaty that the UK doesn’t need to adhere to. We are a sovereign state and could go against it at any time. However, it’s bad for the UK’s reputation and tyrants like Putin could point to us and see that we don’t follow international law so why should he?

however, I’m not sure how leaving it entirely solves that problem.

to play devil’s advocate- it is seen as a living instrument, so can be updated and changed. It decides on individual cases and members are legally bound to uphold its rulings.

I think the problem for some is that it gives human rights to terrorists. Unfortunately, it’s a tricky issue. The bottom line is they are still people. It means you have issues like the east London schoolgirl who wanted to come back to UK- even though she’d been stripped of her citizenship.

I think she may have contested that under a right to family life.

but frankly, as undesirable as she is, she was a British citizen who was born and grew up here. The only reason they could ban her coming back was because she held a Bangladeshi passport.

User135644 · 02/10/2024 12:35

If its stopping us controlling our borders then it has to be considered.

That's a big part of Brexit vote, now we're told we have no power over our borders because of ECHR and bureaucracy.

candlewhickgreen · 02/10/2024 12:37

User135644 · 02/10/2024 12:35

If its stopping us controlling our borders then it has to be considered.

That's a big part of Brexit vote, now we're told we have no power over our borders because of ECHR and bureaucracy.

Edited

How does it do that? Which of the rights it gives don't you want?

DuncinToffee · 02/10/2024 12:42

User135644 · 02/10/2024 12:35

If its stopping us controlling our borders then it has to be considered.

That's a big part of Brexit vote, now we're told we have no power over our borders because of ECHR and bureaucracy.

Edited

Yes please tell us which rights you would like to give up in order to control our borders