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Can there be a solution to this? It keeps happening

43 replies

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 10:44

More dead, attempting to cross the Channel. 50 were in a rubber inflatable. This comes after deaths last week. Why can't there be a solution to this problem?

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Elderberrier · 15/09/2024 10:47

It’s awful isn’t it. I’m interested in other peoples replies as I don’t know a lot about different schools of thought on how to deal with the issue. But to think how desperate parents must be to take their small children on these crossings - my heart wants a better situation for them.

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 10:57

I think that the UK government has attempted to work with European partners, and I know that a huge amount of money has been spent supporting French efforts. Why does nothing work? Disclaimer: I am not absolving any UK government here.
Is it just too profitable for the traffickers?

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Gingernaut · 15/09/2024 11:03

If we could create a way to legitimately claim asylum, that would be a start

Then send people out to find out why people want to come here

Europe has already been accessed, why are they so desperate to keep going to get to us?

Find out what is happening 'out there' and try to counteract the misinformation

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 11:09

Yes, the level of desperation is something else. Why would you risk your life to leave a safe country?

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titchy · 15/09/2024 11:24

The solution is to allow applications for asylum from outside the UK. Easy.

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 11:25

So, people in say - France, could apply from there? Or would the idea be that they apply earlier in their journey?

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titchy · 15/09/2024 11:41

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 11:25

So, people in say - France, could apply from there? Or would the idea be that they apply earlier in their journey?

Either. Applications should be made from anywhere. Mostly though asylum seekers will leave the country they're in danger from, so logistically I'd imagine most applications would be started from places like Italy, Turkey, Greece as they'll have access to more secure means of communication there.

IthinkIamAnAlien · 15/09/2024 11:55

I was interested to see a comment from a French official recently to the effect that it's easy for illegal immigrants to get work here in the UK because of lax regulations around employment.
I suppose there is a thriving black market around casual jobs and if we had identity cards, that would suppress it. I have no idea whether this is true. French bureaucracy is well known and it is difficult to get work there.
It's certainly costing a fortune to support these illegal arrivals while their situation is assessed.

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 11:59

Yes, it's easy to get jobs which are unregulated - which of course leaves the people open to exploitation.
I saw an interview with an Albanian man who crossed the Channel in an inflatable - when he arrived he knew where to go to work on building sites. He made money and returned. I suspect that safety measures and other employment rights were not his experience.

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Octavia64 · 15/09/2024 12:01

Many other EU countries have ID cards or official papers.

The U.K. does not. It also has a large grey market of zero hour contracts cash paid no questions asked.

unsync · 15/09/2024 12:01

There is not one single solution. Task force to go after the traffickers. Ability to turn the boats back (lost with Brexit). Process applications outside the UK. Make the UK unattractive to asylum seekers. Having said that, I have no problem with people coming to the UK if they are prepared to integrate properly - speak English, accept values, work, pay taxes and support themselves and their families.

I do believe though that if you come to the UK and are convicted of a crime, your leave to remain should be cancelled and you and your dependents should be deported after your sentence is completed.

Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 12:25

titchy · 15/09/2024 11:24

The solution is to allow applications for asylum from outside the UK. Easy.

Not easy at all. It won’t stop the boats and it would be prohibitively expensive. I think people who think it’s going to stop the boats are a bit naive.

With the numbers of applicants wanting to come to the UK, they’d have to at least triple staff numbers in every country there was an embassy to ensure that fingerprints and photographs were taken, to make sure that we weren’t giving asylum to a wanted war criminal etc. That’s without interpreters, medical staff, solicitors etc (as they’re entitled to legal advice prior to their asylum interview and when submitting further representations etc, as you wouldn’t expect them to be familiar with the Human Rights act, or the difference between asylum and Humanitarian Protection/Discretionary Leave) How would you process legal aid funding from abroad? Or would you expect local solicitors to re-train in UK law? Or for us to set up and pay for IT systems for them to access UK solicitors (who obviously can’t be employed by the government as they must be independent).

And if the UK accepts responsibility for considering their asylum claim, what are we supposed to do with them while their claims are being considered? Turf them out onto the streets of a foreign country for 6 months? Or provide them with the same accommodation and support in their location that they’d be entitled to in the UK while their claims are being considered. So more staff needed abroad to process that. And obviously accommodation to put them. Which raises issues locally if they’re all in one place.

Plus the agreement of various governments around the world to have these people in their country while we’re considering their applications, without arresting or detaining them until they’ve been processed.

And if it was possible to claim abroad, then numbers of applications would go up, because you’ll have the people who would have preferred to claim in the UK, but who simply couldn’t afford to pay an agent to get them any further than their current location. So in addition to thousands more people, you’ll also need hundreds/thousands more people to actually consider the claims and process grants/appeals.

And if they’re granted asylum, we then presumably have to pay for their safe journey to the UK. And if we refuse their application for asylum, are they going to hold their hands up and say ‘ok, fair enough, I’ll go back home’ or are they going to think ‘Sod it, I’ve got nothing to lose, I’ll come on a boat and keep my head down’. If they do agree not to continue with their journey, has the country they’re in got to keep hosting them until they’ve worked their way through the second, third and fourth choices? And then who pays for their removal back home?

I suppose we could get all the world leaders together and sign up to a central hub, where we all contribute and people are shared out between countries, but then you’ll have huge numbers of people being very cross because they want to go to country A and not country B, because the levels of support are different and it’s easier to work in the black market, and their friends are there, and they know the language etc. So how would that work? They’d just abscond and get on a boat to get to where they wanted to be. And when asked why they hadn’t claimed asylum in the first safe country, they’d say that they were being smuggled there, which is quite a reasonable thing for someone fearing their government to say, and that they weren’t able to choose where they went.

It would stop nothing and cost so much that no government would risk their position for it.

boulevardofbrokendreamss · 15/09/2024 12:29

titchy · 15/09/2024 11:24

The solution is to allow applications for asylum from outside the UK. Easy.

The migrants are not asylum seekers. There is no way to stop it imo. Desperate people
Do desperate things.

Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 12:30

I suppose there is a thriving black market around casual jobs and if we had identity cards, that would suppress it

All employers know that they’re supposed to check that a person has the right to work in the UK and that it’s a 10k fine per person if they’re caught employing someone who doesn’t have permission. If they aren’t checking a person’s passport or paperwork, then it’s because they don’t care &/or are confident they won’t get caught. ID cards won’t change that.

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 12:37

boulevardofbrokendreamss · 15/09/2024 12:29

The migrants are not asylum seekers. There is no way to stop it imo. Desperate people
Do desperate things.

It never used to happen, though. I remember it starting. What changed?.

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Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 12:40

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 12:37

It never used to happen, though. I remember it starting. What changed?.

It got harder to cross the channel by lorry or train. It’s cheaper to go by small boat.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 15/09/2024 12:41

titchy · 15/09/2024 11:24

The solution is to allow applications for asylum from outside the UK. Easy.

But if someone wasn't 'eligible' for asylum why would it stop them trying to cross the channel?

Corinthiana · 15/09/2024 12:43

Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 12:40

It got harder to cross the channel by lorry or train. It’s cheaper to go by small boat.

That's true. They used to stowaway on lorries, didn't they.

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Theyhadalovelytime · 15/09/2024 12:47

It's big business now, impossible to stop I think and only going to get worse with the climate crisis unfolding before our eyes

TheWayTheLightFalls · 15/09/2024 12:50

Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 12:30

I suppose there is a thriving black market around casual jobs and if we had identity cards, that would suppress it

All employers know that they’re supposed to check that a person has the right to work in the UK and that it’s a 10k fine per person if they’re caught employing someone who doesn’t have permission. If they aren’t checking a person’s passport or paperwork, then it’s because they don’t care &/or are confident they won’t get caught. ID cards won’t change that.

Well... it seems to be common knowledge that the cheap car washes and nail bars are employing underpaid illegal migrants. Building sites, places that pay "cash in hand", areas which have a high number of migrants from x country or region so it's easy to find a cash in hand job based on word of mouth. I'd suggest a combination of ID cards and enforcement would have some impact.

Foxybyname · 15/09/2024 12:56

Well maybe if the UK didn't make itself the 'meal ticket' it clearly is, then this atrocious loss of life wouldn't happen. It appears that we are seen as such an attractive, aka lucrative, place to migrate to that the risks are worth taking. Time to rethink our strategies.....

Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 12:59

TheWayTheLightFalls · 15/09/2024 12:50

Well... it seems to be common knowledge that the cheap car washes and nail bars are employing underpaid illegal migrants. Building sites, places that pay "cash in hand", areas which have a high number of migrants from x country or region so it's easy to find a cash in hand job based on word of mouth. I'd suggest a combination of ID cards and enforcement would have some impact.

I think enforcement has an impact, but they can only go to so many places each day, plus do all the paperwork necessary to generate fines etc. The number of enforcement staff needed to make a significant impact would be insane. Akin to police numbers. And if we haven’t got enough police to fight crime, they definitely can’t afford enough enforcement officers to put a stop to the black market employment.

I think the only thing that’s going to stop people hiring from the black market is to shut down their businesses, seize their assets and dish out custodial sentences. And that’s a) too draconian to be supported and b) open up a whole new can of worms.

Persiancarpet · 15/09/2024 13:04

Foxybyname · 15/09/2024 12:56

Well maybe if the UK didn't make itself the 'meal ticket' it clearly is, then this atrocious loss of life wouldn't happen. It appears that we are seen as such an attractive, aka lucrative, place to migrate to that the risks are worth taking. Time to rethink our strategies.....

Whilst British people might moan about Britain, Britain is ultimately a desirable place to live so worth the risk.

  1. We have a thriving employment blackmarket.
  2. Many migrants will choose Britain because they have some understanding of English which will make life easier.
  3. Under 18s and those with children will get some kind of accommodation.
  4. British people overall are really quite accepting/tolerant of migrants compared to other countries.
  5. Britain already has significant migrant communities so someone leaving elsewhere will find their community here which again makes life easier.

So overall Britain will need to make itself less desirable for migrants. However, that's not palatable.

Whothefuckdoesthat · 15/09/2024 13:07

And if we refuse their application for asylum, are they going to hold their hands up and say ‘ok, fair enough, I’ll go back home’ or are they going to think ‘Sod it, I’ve got nothing to lose, I’ll come on a boat and keep my head down’

Just to add to this, it’s likely to encourage people to take more risks to evade the authorities. At the moment, it’s in their best interests to be found and rescued as quickly as possible. If they have to smuggle themselves inland, they’ll take bigger risks, travel in worse weather, etc. There will be more fatalities, not less.

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