Everyone was worried about the Tories and the NHS

[Puzzlemad]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c0qejx03zjnt

Labour can change the NHS in ways the Tories would never be given popular permission to do so.

I hope the reforms are considered and well-executed although with the bureaucracy of the civil service, it's hard to say. But it's certainly reform that's needed ahead of more money.

I don't think you can even have a conversation about reforming the NHS without discussing social care.

He did not look at social care but he did say that it must be considered as part of the process. He pointed out that more funding for social care could reduce pressure on the NHS and give better value for the taxpayer.

As someone whose MIL spent months in a hospital bed (at £300 a night) because there was no nursing home space for her I can believe this.

I thought his report was impressive and clearly laid out areas where things could be improved for everyone.

This is incorrect. Germany and France have insurance based healthcare. Everyone over 40k pa pays significant (several hundreds/month) for health insurance.

Over the last 15 years UK population has grown 10%, NHS workforce has increased 30%.

I always worry when they start on about "prevention" in the context of costs and reform.

Prevention is absolutely the best and ultimately cost-effective, but its gains are very long term, expensive to implement, and in the meantime the existing sick need treatment.

The same goes for digital and moving from hospital to community - all of this takes time, heaps of cash, savings are neither short term nor guaranteed and the waiting lists will still be there for the forseeable.

I agree broadly with their reform suggestions, but there's still no getting away with needing extra capacity for what's happening right now. It's not either, it's both.

I don't think you can even have a conversation about reforming the NHS without discussing social care.

The vast majority of which is provided by the private sector, I think 83-83% ?

But the amount per person spent is more. Which is why their health care is better.

I wasn’t suggesting it was state funded.

The NHS is state funded and if we want to have healthcare like the rest of Europe we will need to spend more. But in the right places.

I was working for a large company who provided IT services to the NHS amongst others. The waste and cottage industries run by people who just spun out their roles was shocking. I presume they didnt want to lose their job!

The IT is something interesting. They put a bid out for some services. Try and go for cheap and cheerful and pride themselves on screwing down the supplier.

Then they find that all the things they want to do arent included in the new services. They honestly think they can stamp their foot and get things done because they are the NHS i.e not buying mainteance on a key circuit.

They also cling on for dear life to old technology as they know how it works. They are scared of new services and in many cases they cannot be bothered to learn. I sort of understand this but dont use old services without maintenance for example. It will all end in tears.

Co payment like parts of Europe. I am fed up of not addressing the elephant in the room. If people actually pay a small charge for something maybe it will have more value.

Most sense I've heard come out of a politician's mouth for a long time.

I agree with Starmer.

Perhaps it will also introduce some accountability when poor care is provided that people have paid for. Other then a shrugging of the shoulders and the expectation we be grateful because it’s “free”.

We can only hope.

And who will be making these co payments? If exemption is along the lines of free prescription only 5% of people will co pay. So a whole extra layer of admin so 5% of people have to now pay £50 (?) to see a medic. These will be the same people (healthy working age people) who are paying all the taxes that fund the NHS, even if on minimum wage themselves. They will then be the only group excluded from free treatment.

https://capx.co/at-this-rate-labour-will-never-fix-the-nhs/?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=94784783&utm_content=94784783&utm_source=hs_email

An interesting article which makes the case that eg France has better healthcare because more money comes in at the bottom, from the consumer/patient, and there's a lot more competition when people can choose which services and practitioners they wish to consult.

*5% of people seen, not 5% of population.

But wasn't that exactly what Farage suggested and got heavily criticised for.

I never thought I would see the day when Labour started to copy Reform policies.

This started decades ago with hospital bed closures, the care in the community that never happened, superclincs that didn't happen, and the changes in nurse training, pointless management roles, poor pay, staff leaving in droves, people living longer, complex illnesses, . There are the equal of 26 hospitals full of patients who don't need to be there but need home, longstay or community care beds. You can't just keep throwing out money at the NHS, it needs a complete overhaul. The social care system is the one who needs the money.

The NHS doesn't need more money. It needs to be ran as a business, it needs a cull of managers and diversity officers for a start. It needs the public to stop expecting to see a GP when they have a cold and asking for prescriptions for antihistamines or Paracetamol, going to A&E with a sprained pinky, they need to stop demanding cosmetic surgery for tattoo removal etc Healthcare trusts need disbanding and purchasing needs centralising and to be ran by business people not folk that can't tell their arse from their elbows.
We all need to look after the NHS. We need to stop abusing it.

Agreed . The bottomless pit narrative has to go- it needs investment and properly paid staff

Another huge issue with the NHS is their preference to leave people untreated until the very last minute. They would rather wait until you are practically on your deathbed before offering any decent treatment by which time the patient is in a far worse state, treatment will be more complicated and outcomes less favourable. Catching problems early and treating them promptly needs to be addressed.

@Carriemac

"Agreed . The bottomless pit narrative has to go- it needs investment and properly paid staff"

But just where is the money going to come from??

This is not a preference it is the whole reason for NHS needs major reform.

All the years whilst in opposition the labour politicians insisted that more money be given to the NHS.
What has changed?

This.

I absolutely cannot understand this approach. There is no joined up thinking at all.

GPs are not able to refer until you meet certain criteria. You cannot have certain treatments until you are “worse” which reduces economic activity and has a knock on effect on mental health.

It costs more in the long run to keep dicking about rather than actually treating people.

This, sadly I don't think people value things that they perceive to be "free"

Doesn't anyone think it doesn't need some sort of reform?

The cost of the NHS is predicted to go up by 3% above inflation every year on an ongoing basis. That is fairly obviously not sustainable.