Difficult child - please help!

[Raspberryripple11]

I run a weekly after school club and on the whole really enjoy it. But we have one particular child who I’m struggling with and not really sure what to do…
Let’s call them A. A has been coming to the club on and off for a couple of years. A quite often doesn’t want to join in with the activity we’re doing as a group. This on its own is fine, this occasionally happens with other children and we just find them a different solo activity they can do instead. The problem is that if A doesn’t want to do something, they’ll disrupt it for everyone else. A couple of examples: 1. we were doing a treasure hunt / challenge activity. Tasks were spread out throughout the room and teams had to complete the tasks to get clues. A collected all of the tasks and then sat under a chair and refused to come out. 2. We were playing a ball game which involved throwing a ball over a table. A sat on the table and refused to move. When something like this happens I first ask A to please stop whatever it is she’s doing that’s disruptive, I give them options of what they can do instead, I explain to them why they can’t do what they’re doing. There’s usually a bit of back and forth with A arguing back, then they’ll stop talking and just stare at me. I really struggle to know what to do in this situation and to be honest I find it quite unnerving.
Another problem we have is that A is often rude and occasionally physically violent towards the other children. Every week I find myself explaining to A that what they did isn’t nice and please can they apologise. They often flat out deny what happened (despite me seeing/hearing it happen). And then stop arguing and stare at me.
I also worry that because A doesn’t listen to me when I ask them not to do something, they could end up in danger. For example they leave the meeting room, and although I explain to them that I’m asking them not to for their own safety, they just don’t seem to care.
When A started I knew they struggled a bit to make friends, so I was hoping that our club could help with that, but if anything they’re worse than when they started. I really want A to be able to enjoy and actively participate in our club, but I think they’re taking away that experience from the other children in the club. Today I had a parent say that their child was scared to come tonight in case A hit them.
The other complication is that A’s mother runs another club at the same time as us in the same building. A’s mother is aware of A’s behaviour, but doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I worry that if I stop A from coming, A’s mother will be very angry with me. I see A’s mother weekly and we also go to social events together for the club leaders.
I really don’t know what to do here. It’s causing me stress and is taking a lot of the fun out of running the club. I’ve come close to quitting a couple of times, usually after a particularly bad patch with A, which would mean closing the club. I feel like I spend the whole time firefighting problems with A rather than helping the other kids with their activities.
So please, give me some advice. I have no idea. I’ve never come across a child like this who doesn’t seem to have any empathy for the other kids or any respect for the adult leaders.

I think it’s impossible for you to ok deal with. You need to tell her parents that her behaviour is unacceptable and she can no longer attend. If this is cubs or similar there will be a process to follow I would’ve thought? She obviously gets no proper parenting at home!

I think the problem is that I know the behaviour is unacceptable, but I’m scared about talking to the mum about it. I’m also worried about how everyone in the leader social circle will react to it.
I’m terrified of confrontation to be honest, and I worry that if A isn’t allowed at the club, then her mum will stop running her club and that will be forced to close.

A conversation is not a confrontation.

Hi AMum. I wanted to have a chat to you about A and the club. A doesn’t seem to be enjoying it anymore and unfortunately it is affecting the other children. So far, A done x to disrupt y activity, done a to upset b, and hit child M. The mother of M has said M is now scared to attend the club.
I don’t want to ban A. I’d like your suggestions on what we can do so we don’t have to.

Follow AMum’s suggestions. Then if A ever hits a child again, or anything else they shouldn’t, ban them. Maybe an outright ban or maybe just missing a session.

You are the adult. Act like it. Protect the other children in your care as well as A.

I think you need a behaviour strategy, tell the mum that if A hits another child or disrupts the planned activity then you will send A to her mum's club.

The issue sounds more of a mum problem than child, if mum recognised and accepted the issue you could work together to help the child which will improve the situation for the child and everyone else. Someone has to talk to the mum, is there anyone else who can. If you run a club you really should have the confidence to deal with this.

I would ring the mother/father every time A disrupts/misbehaves etc to come and collect. I don't care if they are somewhere else - you are running a club, not childcare. If they refuse, then I think you have to say that A can no longer attend.
Could A go the the Mums group instead?

But ultimately your responsibility is to the children in your care l, not those in the other group. If As mum decides to leave, then so be it.

If A's mum can't run her class that's not your problem, so don't worry about that. The safety of the children in your group is the most important thing

Can you write out the club behaviour rules on a large piece of paper and stick it on the wall so that all the children know what the rules are.

Are you the only adult running this group?

I think it's a mum problem, especially if she doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong with A's behaviour. Is there a reason why A can't be in their mum's group?
As you are the leader of your group, you have to stand up and think of the safety and wellbeing of the children in your group. You can't be namby pamby and be afraid of frank conversations!
Are these groups attached to the school and do the parents pay for their children's places?

Yes, this.

Don’t engage in back-and-forth arguing with A. If she chooses to do something that isn’t actually harming other children or their activities, briefly encourage her to stop then ignore her. But if she is affecting other children and they are scared of her (with reason) you can’t just ignore it.

Ask her mum for advice on how she thinks you should deal with the problems. Surely she won’t think you should ignore A hitting another child. Could A go to her mum's club instead?

If A has special needs of some kind, rather than just being badly behaved, she needs extra support in your club, from another adult.

If she’s not joining in but isn’t disrupting the task then I do just ignore it. I’ll ask her once “A do you want to come and join in” but after that I’ll just leave her to it.
The arguing back is when she’s doings something disruptive/dangerous and I’m trying to get her to stop.
A used to go to the mums club but is now too old for it. She doesn’t always go to our club and instead helps out at the mums club. I don’t know how she behaves but I have seen her be quite verbally nasty to the younger children, not sure whether mum disciplines this (but my guess is that she ignores it).
I think there’s definitely some kind of additional need (although I’m of course not a doctor or psychologist or anything), but we don’t have enough adults to give 1 on 1 support although we are trying to recruit.
I spoke to the adult who runs another club that A attends, and her behaviour is the same at the other club.

Very difficult, then I think your only option is to discuss it with her mum. Perhaps you and the adult at the other club she attends could join forces to "ask the mum for advice" on how to deal with A, so you don’t feel on your own.

Also about A’s mum ignoring hitting. A few years ago I was at an event that A and her mother were also at. A hit another child in plain view of A’s mum. It was pretty much ignored (obviously I don’t know if they spoke about it later on, but at the time nothing was really said).

Maybe A just wants adult attention cos she doesn't get any at home?

And screaming for boundaries that her mum doesn't give her.

I have asked A in the past whether she actually enjoys attending the club, and she always says she does.
I think I need to talk to A and A’s mum together, about what behaviour is expected and that if she can’t behave then she won’t be allowed to come. The problem is I’m away for the next two weeks on holiday so won’t be there to see how she is.

It strikes me that A has learned that disruptive behaviour gets a lot more attention than good behaviour. If she has ADHD, she will have spent so long being told not to do things it either makes no difference, or it's the only attention she gets so it's both exciting and rewarding to her.

Although I'm in total sympathy with either "she can't come any more" or "she needs to go in with her mum" (even if she's the wrong age), you might get some quick wins by:
Totally ignoring, not arguing, "my word is final" the first time she argues. Rise above the staring. Just ignore it - she's probably also quite pleased if you look unsettled so she'll do it more.

An adult standing with her but ignoring her if she tries to muscle in on things she isn't doing. Occasional physical blocking (like when she tries to get in the middle of a game or go out of the room). You don't have to touch her to do this.

Massive praise for cooperation for other children "how quickly you got started! Oh I know X is being annoying, good for you for ignoring her".

If she is leaving the meeting room, then just let her mum know. It may be she needs an additional adult at your club. We had a child like this in Brownies who was disrupting the couple of girls who were in her class at school and mum of one of the other girl found a TA to help with disruptive girl. Or even just a young leader who can walk out of the room and keep an eye while saying nothing.

(I am assuming we are talking about Brownies and Rainbows run at the same time here, or similar).

Unfortunately, from my experience of parenting a similar child, attention to the hitting makes the child do it more for more attention.

We generally try to walk out of the room, shut the door on DS, or pay loads of attention to DD if she's actually been hurt (she has a tendency to cry wolf, and can burst into tears if her shampoo is too cold or we say she can't stay up to watch another episode, so it's not always a justified reaction).

If A has behaviour problems at home, school, and clubs, A gets lots of attention but it's all for poor behaviour and so she's learned this is how you get it.

"Another problem we have is that A is often rude and occasionally physically violent towards the other children."

Get this kid out of the group. It's leaders being scared of kids and parents like these that ruins it for the rest of them.

To be honest you shouldn’t be running a group for kids at all if you are “scared” to deal with parents and tackle challenging behaviour head on. Children are getting hit and you’ve been wringing your hands and not dealing with it head on when you know your current approach has so far been ineffectual.

you’re letting the other children down massively and still finding excuses to delay speaking with the child’s mum. Does not matter if you are going on holiday for two weeks and won’t see how she is fact is this is an ongoing and reoccurring issue.

Sorry to be harsh but you need to step up or step out!

I actually really want to leave! I only wanted to be a helper when I signed up but there was no one else and so I got made the main leader of the group. My MH has never been great but this problem has caused me so much stress/anxiety I was off sick from work last week. I am trying my best in a situation I never wanted to be in. If I leave then the club will close and all the other children will miss out.

It’s ok to prioritise yourself here. Yes a bit of a shame for the children but there will be other clubs and activities and it’s their parents job to find these things for them.

Honestly if it is making you this unhappy it’s ok to leave.

Girlguiding are notorious for making their leaders feel guilty about the unit closing if you leave/don't step up. Don't let that be your driver. They do not treat their volunteers well, they think they are all just little mums with no skills and no job...

I would get A together with her Mum and frame it that you see that A isn't enjoying your club because she doesn't join in, she's seems angry/distracted/disengaged. Act concerned that A isnt getting the most out of the club as she didn't want to do the Treasure Hunt and wanted to sit on the table. In front of her mother, ask her if she enjoys coming because you don't think she does? Does she not like the other children because she's on her own and doesn't seem to want to participate. Come at it from the POV that you're worried that A isn't enjoying it, you could always say, ' but you lashed out at X and hurt him/her. If you were happy here you wouldn't do that'.

*Another problem we have is that A is often rude and occasionally physically violent towards the other children.

Ban her. For the other DC sake. So what if he mum's angry with you? Let her. Hope the adult, you need to keep the other kids safe