Why would one woman / mum say this about another woman / mum?

[LongTimeReading]

Long time reading MN, first time posting, please go easy on me & I apologise if I've put this in the wrong category.

For context, I'm early 50's, female, childless - this is relevant to the issue I'm asking about. My elderly parents need some help at home & wanting to get a cleaner. Hiring someone, or an agency or whatever, is something none of us have experience of, so I'm starting from scratch.

Doing some research on Google, I came across a podcast from the Domestic Cleaning Business Network. They say they are the trade association for domestic cleaning, and I found the podcast really useful in learning about what to expect and how the process works. But during the podcast, one of the participants made a statement about how they tend to find that people who become cleaners may well have not had the greatest success with their education. They also go on to say this can filter through into the children of those cleaners, leading to problems at school, such as behavioral issues, which require the cleaner to attend the school, which could then impact the reliability of the cleaner in terms of their work commitments.

To return to my earlier point, I don't have children, and I've not been around people who have to any notable extent, so this is all new to me. My question is, in my process of finding a cleaner, is this relevant? I frequently struggle with context or lack of it, so it's quite possible I am missing something here, because I can't seem to make the information fit. Also, I'm not sure why one woman & mum would say this about another. It's the fact that it's coming from a place of authority that makes me feel it's important. The podcast is below, and the part in question can be heard from 29:25.

She’s an idiot.

I’d disregard that.

IME, cleaners have not been reliable. Often personal issues do affect reliability. I am pretty tolerant and do wonder sometimes if that makes me easier to cancel than others. You can manage the odd one off, but if you have a clean each week and they only manage two of six, then the house won’t be as clean as you want it, and they will always do the high traffic areas first in which case, which might mean that upstairs rarely gets done.

It’s relevant in the sense that of the cleaners we’ve had, we’ve had two who often didn’t turn up at short, or no notice. We had some who didn’t actually do a great job of cleaning.
Good cleaners who are reliable are truly worth their weight in gold.

It's pure snobbery. The assumption is people /women clean because they can't do anything better , hence the lack of education presumption. Based on that then they presume a certain type of environment/parenting style that results in children with issues . Then more assumptions on the reliability of the cleaner.

The whole thing is irrelevant to the process . It's like me saying blondes have more fun,which means they get absolutely hammered, which means they'll cancel on short notice because they're hung over so don't hire a blonde cleaner.

That sounds like quite an extrapolation. So much so that it sounds like one person’s experience 🙄.

Someone talking on a podcast is in no position of authority. They’re just a person. Anyone can be on a podcast (and god knows there’s some truly derisory content out there).

Cleaning ladies can be unreliable, yes. It’s menial labour, unskilled in the sense that you don’t need a formal education to do it (you do need skills to do it properly, though). It’s also domestic work. Therefore, it mostly falls to women to do. Women also bear the brunt kid responsibility for children. Children are inherently unreliable, being trainee adults. This is the source of unreliability mostly, imo.

Nobody cleans for fun. It’s for money. There has to be a reason why a cleaning lady will forego that money - illness, caring duties, impossible transport etc. If you go through an agency you are more likely, but not guaranteed, to have someone come each week at the agreed upon hour. But it could be anyone, perhaps someone different each week.

Ultimately, this is about relationships. Give and take, like all relationships. You’ll get out of it what you put into it: fair pay, fair treatment, a good employer will see results in stability and quality of work normally.

Thanks for your replies, they confirmed what I was thinking, I.E. the information was drifting from the specifics of the topic. It just seemed such an unusual and unique angle to focus on, when simply explaining that having commitments can lead to unreliability would have been enough.

I'm a mum and sometimes children sickness can affect reliability.
So it can be anything child related, employers need to suck it up if they employ parents/guardians.

My cleaner is fabulous, reliable and I absolutely couldn't work the way I do without her help. Her adult children are all successful in their chosen professions, no doubt in part due to their mum, her values and work ethic. She's worth her weight in gold.

My cleaner has primary aged children and both her and her husband have degrees. She works as a cleaner because it works for her flexibly around her family. It has absolutely nothing to do with her educational outlook for herself and her children. Bonkers leap from one woman about other women.

Thanks again for responses. My mum told me this evening that she's arranged for a lady to come and see her on Saturday morning. This lady already cleans for one of her neighbours and has done so for well over ten years, so I'm really hoping she can do some work for my parents too as I would much rather use a recommendation. I have no idea about her situation, but the person who recommended her seems to thinks she does a good job and has proven to be reliable.

Update: We are still waiting for the original cleaner to visit tomorrow, however, in the meantime I got another number from booklet that came through the door advertising all sorts of local trades.

I called, and all seemed well, she said she was very busy with existing work but may be able to fit more in, so came to see my parents and their home this afternoon (I was there too as funnily enough Friday is the day I clean for them any way). She looked over everything and then said it wouldn't be anything she could take on, as everywhere was very clean already, and that she prefers "a bit of a challenge"! She said she only really likes to clean houses where you can see a difference afterwards.

I explained that I clean the house regularly, and that my parents always clear up after themselves, and that we weren't hoping for anyone to work miracles, but to simply do what I am currently doing, so that I don't have to do it any more! I could have understood her refusing it if it was too dirty for her to get involved with, but not too clean...I hope to have better luck with tomorrow's lady.

@Fynoderee I see on another thread that you are a cleaner...could I be cheeky and ask for your opinion on my experience so far (above)?

Wow!
I used to be a member of the DCBN. I know these ladies. I’m gobsmacked at this.
They employ lots of staff. It’s still a predominantly female industry. Lots of their staff will be mums and they’ll be dealing with staff off to look after sick kids.
BUT, to assume we clean because of a lack of education?
Lots of solo cleaners I know have degrees and either clean alongside to top up their salary or have walked away from stressful, underpaying jobs to do cleaning full time.
And kids from well educated families can still get sick/have behavioural issues.

TBH, I think they’re trying to show cleaners in a negative light to drive people towards using an agency like theirs where they will have staff to cover absences.

Thanks so much for this. I should have explained more clearly, I was thinking more about your thoughts on the lady who said she wouldn't take on my parents house as it was too clean. I wasn't prepared for that school of thought!

I find it more interesting that you are fifty years old and have hardly spent time with any mothers with children? And yet you like to hang out on a parent's website? Welcome all the same.

I feel like you are trying to find fault where there isn't and twist the speaker's words. It is true that most cleaners are women, probably mothers, most likely have weak educational background. The ones with a PhD doing a spot of cleaning while their degree gets translated to UK equivalent or are between jobs do not count. We all love an underdog story of scrubbing toilets while also being a brilliant Astrophysicist but most cleaners aren't like that and it's ok to say so.

It's also disingenuous of you to pretend to be shocked that cleaners' children don't struggle.. if you look at doctors, lawyers and enigneers they usually come from parents who are also doctors and engineers and lawyers... There are exceptions but again, it generally isn't. As for 'behaviours' of course children of families of all financial and educational backgrounds can struggle, but there have been numerous research about multifactors including poverty and single parenthood for example and challenging behaviours, it's nothing new or earth shattering.

I think you're being the snobbish one because you're denying the struggles and reality of being a workingclass woman in a job like cleaning with your fake 'equality' unicorn land thinking. Admitting the struggles of cleaners balancing motherhood or their unreliability due to childcare issues isn't dissing them or their children but putting forward their struggles to hopefully improve their working conditions and humanise them. I feel like what you are hinting is like those who argue that campaigning for maternity leave is a discredit to women in the name of fake equality.. when actually acknowledging difficulties or challenges facing certain groups is what bridges the gap and improves equality. It's ok to say when you are poor in casual work there are usually a bigger picture of also a struggling family. If you're a cleaner with a Masters and just absolutely love scrubbing stranger's shit stains and pee splashes just for fun good for you but for most cleaners this is their livelihood and they do not have the same 'work from home' and flexi hours that some in 'better' jobs like civil servants or fancy companies may be able to offer or the wages to afford a live in nanny.

Lastly, I don't know why you think just because someone is the same sex or also is a mother it means they can never be wrong or say something unsupportive! You seem to see us as this homogenous mystical group who can never do any wrong while also not personally knowing any.

I find it more interesting that you are fifty years old and have hardly spent time with any mothers with children? And yet you like to hang out on a parent's website? Welcome all the same.

Nothing odd about it at all; if you don't have children you don't tend to meet as many people who do; and there is a 'Mumsnetters Without Children' board where you can find many more of us childfree women who like to hang out here.

We only ever use a cleaning company who manage their teams of cleaners adter too many awful and weird experiences with stand alone cleaners. Never again.

This is my worry - I don't want to swap the problem of cleaning with the problem of managing the person who agrees to do it.

The other lady has visited today. I like her, and she's come highly recommended. She said she may be able to fit my parents in around her existing clients, so I'm waiting to hear. But other than her, I think I may go to a company.

We were advised to use a company by a very posh friend of Dh whose family always had cleaners. Then you just deal with the company who deal with any issue. It’s different teams each week blissfully anonymous.

Honestly the weirdness we had from individuals was stressful and you have to give them a key i always ended up getting sucked into their lives and feeling guilty. One was an alcoholic I had to pretend we were moving to get rid of her. never doing that again.

This is very interesting, as a friend of mine said virtually the same thing, at least in principle as she never did get around to hiring a company. She was getting increasingly uncomfortable with her cleaner (who was a neighbour) as she gradually realised the cleaner/neighbour didn't have a lot to fill her days and was getting ever more invested in my friends life. Said friend got a leaflet at one point from a franchise cleaning company, and thought the idea of having people she didn't know to come in and clean when she wasn't there was looking quite attractive. I can see that viewpoint.

It has to be said that almost all other people I've spoken to (and there haven't been that many, less than ten) all prefer a private cleaner because they appreciate the rapport, though they've all had their quirks, as indeed I'm sure their customers have. In fact, one person I know is adorable as a friend, but I don't know how any trades person put up with her, as she's very difficult.

I also had one person tell me they used a company, thinking it would deal with the management of the cleaning service, but that they ended up managing the people who came to clean, if and when they turned up. I didn't expect this to be an easy process, but it's turning out to be quite the minefield!

What if you become all matey and hear about their dreadful life how can you then say they are doing a rubbish job / end the arrangement? You can’t - you are stuck. We’ve used a local firm for 10 years no regrets.