Sellers forcing us to buy without building regs

[Velvetpine]

DP and I (we have one DC) have been trying to buy a house for a few months. The sellers did an attic conversation with an office/bedroom and a bathroom in the loft. They didn’t get any drawings done at the time of converting, no building regs, and didn’t get the permitted development part signed off either - literally nothing. They’re trying to push us to accept indemnity insurance but it’s not clear whether our mortgage lender would accept this, and even so there could be potential safety and fire hazards if it wasn’t done properly. It was done 6 years ago. Our surveyor and solicitor suggest indemnity insurance wouldn’t be good enough.

The work from what we can see was done well so maybe it’s fine, but we don’t want to take the risk and we might also have problems selling ourselves down the line without retrospective permission being sought. I love the house so feeling gutted.

Has anyone else been in this position and what did you do?

I sold my last house with some structural changes that didn't have building regs sign off, thankfully it only cost me a £20 indemnity policy, but it added to the stress and I wouldn't do it again (exH actually but still).

The policy will only cover costs associated with the planning department taking action because you've not got building regs, which is generally highly unlikely to happen when it's permitted development, it won't cover you if they've made changes to the roof structure to gain more head height and the roof falls in and neither will your house insurance.

We bought a property where the solicitors had not ascertained there were no building regulations obtained. They were negligent so ended up having to pay the £7000 it took to get retrospective building regs because it didn't comply! Further it took nearly 4 years and a lot of stress to get the council to decide what they wanted doing!

We were almost lucky the solicitor had been negligent because we didn't foot the bill.

The issue here is you know they haven't got building regs so Indemnity Insurance wouldn't cover you. It covers issues where there is ambiguity.

Walk away!

There are webpages like the Home Owners Association which make indemnity insurance sound like a very normal resolution to this scenario too which has thrown me https://hoa.org.uk/advice/guides-for-homeowners/for-owners/no-building-regulations/

We’e also aware that development becomes immune to enforcement after a 10 year period which is in 4 years time. I know there are some exceptions but not sure they apply here.

The main thing for us would be that it isn’t safe structurally or in fire safety terms as there’s no way to prove it is

in lots of conveyancing it’s entirely normal to have indemnity policies if the seller or a previous seller didn’t get building regs. A classic example is a small kitchen extension. The policy effectively compensates you if the council enforce and you have to remove the works or remediate them.

What it doesn’t do is deal with whether the works are safe or not. So I think that’s the line where you determine if you are comfortable with the risk or not (entirely your decision). But the seller is unlikely to want to approach the council for any kind of retrospective consent as this would mean that they would then be unable to get insurance if they didn’t get the consent (and it’s likely to be very very slow).

In your position with the loft issue I personally wouldn’t go ahead. We saw lots of dodgy loft conversions, the fire and safety issues worried me.

I think I’d consider this too.

I am a bit surprised by some responses on this thread about planning permission. Yes the purchaser should ensure she has building regs for her house.

But householders do NOT need to get planning permission (or 'sign off') for PD- that's the point of PD, as it was a waste of everyone's time and money and LA's complained about it years ago, hence PD was introduced for straightforward loft conversions.

You just need to adhere to the PD rules and get building regs.
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/loft-conversion/planning-permission

Bear in mind that whatever your solicitor is advising you, if and when you come to sell yourselves, your buyer's solicitor will most likely be advising them the same.

If you do need to do work in future (eg repair the roof or remodel the rooms) that work in itself my require building control to sign it off, and at thay point there may ne a can of worms in terms of inadequate structure etc opened up meaning you have to redo what you are considering done.

Be clear in your mind that planning permission and building regs are completely separate.. planning permission relates to what it looks like from the outside and how people are using the building/coming and going and possibly earning money or not from the property. Building regs relates to the physical structure and how it protects or imperils its occupants from fire, collapse, cold, etc

They should be able to get it signed off legally if it was only 6 years ago and it doesn't cost very much because we did the same with our permitted garage conversion last year. The fact they haven't suggests they haven't met the building regs. You could offer them a heavily reduced price as it now has one less bedroom as the loft room can only be classed as a loft. Or just walk away. Something fishy about this to me.

The seller can't force you to do anything. Walk away it should not have been advertised as having that bedroom.

@Velvetpine the 10 year limitation is for Planning Permission breaches (though there is no limit for projects that involved a Listed Building)

Building Regs breaches are different. The limit used to be 6 years but has recently been extended to 30 years
https://www.clarionsolicitors.com/articles/the-building-safety-act-2022-extending-the-limitation-periods-case-example
for historic projects (15 years for projects undertaken after 2022)

We had similar to this when we bought our house. The loft was converted pre-buildings regs so they weren’t available but our seller had added an en suite without any building regs sign off 5 years prior to sale. They and the estate agents couldn’t understand why I said that an indemnity policy wasn’t enough to proceed until I pointed out that an indemnity would not keep my daughter safe if the bath fell through the floor into her bedroom below… They dug their heels in. I contacted the local council to see if retrospective sign off was possible. The council said yes and the sellers eventually got it signed off. We loved the house but I would have walked away without the sign off.

When I said you might have to knock it down as your own expense I assumed the OP would not go against it!
it's breaching a court order that causes the jail time.
You could say "going into a shop can result in jail time" as that could be also be the subject of an injunction but most people would not do something against the courts will.

Conveyancer here - I would NEVER buy a property that did not have Building Regulation Consent for a loft conversion. It is way to risky. An indemnity policy is a sticking plaster for paperwork it in no way guaranties any work has been carried out safely. IMO no building regulations for small building projects isn't such an issue but a loft conversion is a huge undertaking and considers fire regulations etc.

Nope, don't buy it.

Also, as an asisde, a Solicitor or Conveyancer is not allowed to tell you/advise you not to buy a property. Their job is present the facts to you and for you to decide. Their main role is to convey the legal title.

if they are not prepared to play ball and sort it out and you do not have the funds to sort out there is only one solution - walk away

I'd be worried the work wasn't done as well as you think. For a project like that, the builder would be well aware building regs was required, so why didn't they get it?

I am fairly relaxed about more minor issues but I would not buy a house with a loft conversion without a buildings regs certificate. They did not even have drawings so you have no idea what standards it was built to. I am not sure why you are still mulling it over, cut your losses and find a new property.

Newsflash - sellers cannot force you or anyone to make a transaction that you don't want to make.

They didn’t get any drawings done at the time of converting, no building regs, and didn’t get the permitted development part signed off either - literally nothing.

Newsflash 2 - they're liars by omission. What they should have said is that they didn't bother to go through plannng when they should have done. Their development will never get retrospective planning permission, so they're now expecting you to take on the risk. That's different to how they've worded it.

do not proceed. Caveat emptor - buyer beware.

If there's no building regs on a converted attic it can't be called a bedroom in the listing and you would hope that the price of the property would reflect that.

I can't imagine anyone going to the trouble of doing a 'proper' loft conversion and not getting building regs. I mean, if you're spending 50k and it's been done right there'll be regs, simple as that.

That's not to say it's been done wrong, but you'll never know unless something goes wrong or you rip it all out.

Even if it doesn't have regs you can still use it as a bedroom.

Family friends bought a house with a large loft conversion that was signed off. But the work was so shit they've payed out a fortune to rectify things over the years. You've been given a massive red flag to start with. I would run away from this.

You’re confusing planning permission with a building regulations certificate. The latter is still needed even if the former isn’t.

I've sold a house in the past without building regs ( french doors between kitchen and conservatory had been removed). I paid for an indemnity policy. Even the surveyor said he'd done the same in his house. The buyer was happy with the risk and agreed the removal of the doorway enhanced the property (I offered to put back in if necessary). This is an example of where an indemnity policy works in a low risk situation.

OP - Your situation is high risk, you have no idea what strengthening etc was done in the attic floor and so may find the whole lot starting to collapse one day... or you may not... but don't take the risk. Walk away.

As the surveyor say indemnity insurance would be OK, it's reasonable to assume s/he's assessed that there is no real risk of the ceiling falling in. No surveyor is ever going to advise "The ceiling is likely to fall in and severely injure or kill you, but never mind, the insurance will cover it".

You need to determine whether the risk is worth it to you. Indemnity will only be valid against council enforcement which is unlikely after six years, not inferior work or structural problems further down the line. If anyone asks or has asked the council an indemnity policy is invalid anyway. Does the valuation reflect the house without the conversion? We have a loft space without full br but the price reflected its use as storage.

Building regs for an extra storey is a bit complicated isn’t it because you have to make sure that the rest of the house is then brought up to increased safety levels for fire safety. This often means changing the internal doors throughout the house so they can withstand fire for a certain amount of time. There may be other modifications too. Therefore even if the loft extension was done well, there may be other implications to do with the property that are not adequate for a (now) 3 storey home. If they weren’t planning to get building regs sign off they almost certainly didn’t bother doing these things which is likely to be a problem for your lender and possibly home insurance.

Exactly this.

And don’t forget that you will be in the same position when you come to sell the property. It’s not worth the risk.