Thoughts around wearing symbols of belief

[Chernobog]

No one bats an eye at someone wearing a cross to show they believe in God, or Sikhs wearing items in the paragraph below (not picking on Sikhs, it's just what I found on wiki)

With this is mind, if you are offended by someone wearing a pronoun badge but not by a cross, then that is illogical. Why is one person's belief in something religious

I don't believe in God(s), but I do believe it's possible for others to, in the same way that I think people who believe they are Trans truly believe they are born in the wrong body.

I guess what I am clumsily trying to say, is why is one belief more tolerated than others?

^https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_clothing^
Baptized Khalsa Sikhs are mandated to wear the 5 Ks: Kesh (unshorn hair), strapped Kirpan (sword), Kachhehra (prescribed shorts), Kanga (Comb tucked in the tied up hair), Karha (Steel bracelet). He/she must not have on his/her person any token of any other faith. He/she must not have his/her head bare or be wearing a cap. He/she must not be wearing any ornaments piercing through any part of the body.

I'm not offended by a pronoun being mentioned on a badge, as long as no-one is required to declare pronouns if they don't want to.

A pronoun badge sets the expectation that I will use a pronoun that is incompatible with the person’s sex - compelled speech.
Religious symbols set no such requirements.

Interesting, you could avoid use of pronoun though. Although does it really matter what someone wants to be called, in the long run?

Some people are offended by those who support trans who wear pronoun badges. So if I, a woman, wore a She/her badge then they are offended.

I'm truly not being goady, it was a thought that popped in my head after reading the thread on KJK and her actions in a GP surgery. I'm not brave enough to post in the Feminism: Sex and gender discussions board though.

YOU - Can believe anything and everything and where anything and everything YOU want too.

I - Can believe anything and everything and where anything and everything I want too.

Now think, using your Sikh information.
If you're employer demanded you adopt the Sikh clothing and beliefs even though you're not Sikh and if you don't, you're fired.
Or if a Sikh colleague demanded you adopt the Sikh clothing and beliefs and if you don't they'll complain about you and you'll be fired.

You and I can believe whatever, but I forcing you or you forcing me to adopt those beliefs will cause pushback.

Or, put it this way, if i wore a t-shirt that said I was the king of mars and demanded you call me sire and pay me tribute... You'd likely tell me to fuck off... But if a man wears a blouse and demands you call him she and pay him tribute by allowing him into women's spaces and give him women's jobs and awards?...

I'm not gc.

I have never seen anybody rationally take offense to other people passively wearing pronoun badges. The offence usually comes from the expectations to engage with it. Which I can understand. Christian's don't typically expect others to engage with their crucifix necklaces.

A cross necklace is not asking anything of me. A cross necklace is someone expressing their belief, nothing more. It's personal.

A pronoun badge is an indicator of expectation that others will alter their own beliefs to make someone else feel more comfortable.

The two are not comparable. No one wearing a cross is expecting me to address them as "your holiness".

I suspect someone wearing a pronoun badge would argue that their pronouns / gender identity is a statement of empirical fact, not a matter of belief.

TBH I’ve not heard someone say they are offended by pronoun badges. I don’t mind if I see someone wearing one, so long as I’m not obliged to wear one too.

I don’t have a problem with anyone believing in magic sky people. I don’t and as long as they respect my beliefs I’ll respect theirs.

If someone wears a pronoun declaration with the expectation that I will use them I have a problem. I’ll never use compelled speech and I’ll silently be judging someone whose ego is so huge they want to control what people call them when they aren’t around to hear it.

@PetrichorSoul not even if it’s just some casual
interaction with a waiter/ess or similar?

I don’t feel particularly ‘compelled’ by anything in that scenario, it’s an easy adjustment and has no impqct
on my life.

A bit like I might attend a church event and listen to the sermon, while not actually believing in god, and nod along to what they or others say.

Sometimes, if someone is wearing a pronoun badge, perhaps they are simply attempting to make it clearer what their gender is as it may not be obvious for others that don't know them well. If they're transitioning or transgender, this could be even more important.

In the KJK example, she chose to take offence for whatever reason.

This example needs to be taught in schools.

I was trying to think of how to say this but you put it perfectly

A person who is religious doesn't expect you to wear their religious symbols or have long hair though.
You can wear a badge stating your pronouns I can acknowledge your pronouns but I don't have to believe "alterative: pronouns are necessarily an actual thing .

Is it because religious symbols are something we're all used to seeing, and the pronouns thing seems new, and a bit of a fad? A bit 'look at meeee!" Whereas eg crosses and stars of David are usually quite discreetly worn and although they display allegiance, they are (like a tattoo, or an engagement ring) primarily for the benefit of the wearer. Although that could be disputed, of course.

I don’t know OP but thanks for reminding me of this meme lol

In a casual interaction with a waiter I would expect to use 2nd person pronouns - hence "you." Pronoun badges aren't about that, nor about what the person uses personally (presumably "I"). Rather, they're about dictating the speech - and perception- of a third party when talking about them.

It's also about more than "what somebody wants to be called", which most of us are likely to go along with out of politeness. Spend any time online and you'll see that politeness used as a gotcha to force access to opposite-sex spaces and resources because after all, you've just acknowledged they ARE the opposite sex. So many women have come to the conclusion that were better off saying fuck, no to politeness.

But why would anyone need to know somebody else's inner sense of gender? I might as well put on a badge specifying my star sign or my favorite football team.

Oh This!

@GrumpyPanda can’t bring myself to be bothered about that.

They would like me to know they consider themselves a ‘they’. Ok, doesn’t impact what I do, how I treat them etc.

I don’t think wearing a pronoun badge isn’t the same as wanting to access female spaces.

My perspective on this is that there needs to be a bit of give and take - reading a badge someone is wearing is not really a big deal.

I don't have a problem with someone wearing a pronoun badge.

I do have problems if I get 'told off' for not using someone's correct pronoun when I'm not facing them so can't see the badge - for example, using 'him' to point out someone I believe to be male across the room and they're wearing a she/her or they badge that I can't see.

And I object if I'm told I need to wear one. I am a woman, I see myself as a woman, I'm obviously a woman by my name (if I'm wearing a name badge) therefore I don't need an additional label of pronouns.

Basically, in my own case, if it's not got a label on it, call it what it looks like and you'd be right!

I find it a bit laughable to see an obviously biological woman (or man) wearing she/her (or he/him) badges - as a comedy programme years ago said 'that's stating the bleeding obvious!' and just makes the wearer look a little daft IMO.

From a religious symbol point of view? I'm not Jewish or Sikh. I respect those, and other, religions. And I'm happy for people to wear symbols of those religions. Because they're not telling me I need to wear anything to ally myself with either of those religions or any others.

I know many people of different religions who don't wear symbols showing their faith. Many of my family are church going Christians but they don't wear a cross. It's not mandatory to wear a cross (and some other religions are the same).

Pronoun badges don't have to be mandatory either as, in the case of the majority of people, what you see is what you're getting. No need to label.

But you’ve only given us one example of beliefs you believe aren’t tolerated. Yes religious jewellery is tolerated, it doesn’t affect anyone who isn’t wearing it. And transsexual symbols are sometimes less tolerant for multiple different reasons. What other symbols do you believe are less tolerated?

It's not an equivalent example because the religious symbols are an expression of personal belief, the pronoun badge is an implicit request / expectation for someone else to act on or respect your belief.

It would be more appropriate to compare someone wearing a cross or magen David with someone wearing a trans flag or a pride badge. People might make judgements based on any of those and there are arguments about if demonstrating your beliefs in work environment, where others might hold strong conflicting beliefs is appropriate or not but that's a different thing.

It depends on the point of the badge/adornment/dress etc - if it's for them, as part of their faith, then that's a lot different than it being to tell others how to behave (how to address them, for example).

I'm a Christian and I wear a cross. I wouldn't automatically expect you to believe in it though

If you wear a pronoun badge that means that you believe in it, but don't expect me to. I'm all about the chromosomes just as many people are atheists or another religion.

I don't like being told what to believe or expected to change my behaviour beyond being polite and kind to people.

MonsteraMama
The two are not comparable. No one wearing a cross is expecting me to address them as "your holiness".

🤣
The Pope, possibly?