Men who kill ex-partners and go on to commit suicide (TW)

[DontThinkJustDo]

I'm sorry to ask this and I hope it's not too insensitive, I'm just trying to understand. I've been talking to a friend tonight about the horrific deaths of Carol, Hannah and Louise Hunt and I couldn't quite explain myself so I'm going to try again here and hope I make more sense.
From past experience I totally understand that there are controlling and possessive men (yeah I know NAMALT, let's just get that one out of the way). I kind of understand (wrong word I know but I can't think of a better one) that some of them when they split up they have the attitude of "if I can't have you no-one will", it is showing the same control that they exercised when they were together. So, they go to extremes and kill their ex-partner, full of rage and hatred that the ex has had the courage/audacity to ditch them. Then, presumably out of cowardice at not wanting to face the repercussions of what they have done they then go on to kill themselves. It's a situation we are sadly familiar with.
The thing I am struggling to get is that these men are arrogant and self-serving - so why do they do something that will ultimately cost them their own lives? Do they know at the outset that they are going to kill themselves? I just can't get my head around why they would start a process that ends up with them dying. These men presumably aren't suicidal at the outset. In fact, I think men threatening suicide which they have no intention of following through is a common form of abuse and control. So, why do these men do it?
Does that make sense? Can anyone help me understand the psychology behind it?

In this case I think his suicide attempt was an afterthought

He didn't go equipped to kill himself IMO. Shooting yourself with a crossbow would be v difficult ( hence he fucked it up)

Having read Jane Monckton Smith, as I understand it:

1. to have control over their own destiny
2. to not be held accountable for their actions
3. to go out in a blaze of notoriety

And I think it’s also pretty common for them to mess up the suicide bit. Not so much messing up the killing the woman part though.

in the states it is called "family annihilation" and there is quite a lot written about it

to go out in a blaze of notoriety

That's sent a chill down my spine. I hadn't heard of Jane Monckton Smith, I've just looked her up and will take a read. Thank you.

I think so too. The photo of him walking away - he seemed so calm.

I read into this and they often are intending to kill themselves and arrogance oven is a cover for self hatred. I read that some see the woman as part of them and belonging to them and therefore coming with them. From what I read there are several different personality types and proposed motives of men who commit this awful crime.

I read into this and they often are intending to kill themselves and arrogance oven is a cover for self hatred.
That makes a lot of sense. My ex was an arrogant prick and that came from a place of immense insecurity, and yes - self-loathing. Interesting point that they do intend to kill themselves first, I suppose being rejected feeds into that self-hate.

No, that's when the man takes out the wife and kids. Family annihilation is often followed by perpetrator suicide, but not always, and perpetrator suicide is not family annihilation's defining feature.

some see the woman as part of them and belonging to them and therefore coming with them.

There are cultures in which "the wife is property of the husband and should die with him" is, or has been, widely accepted. Sati, the Indian practice of burning widows alive on their husband's funeral pyre, springs to mind as the best-known example. The Ancient Egyptians murdered concubines and buried them with pharaohs.

Patriarchy is global, innit.

I don't think there is much thought and reasoning in it. It is pure emotion that they act on.

Any cognitive behavioural therapist will tell you that emotions don't come from nowhere, they are formed when an outside event (such as being jilted) meets a person's core beliefs (women are property) and automatic thoughts (she's not allowed to jilt me, she's mine) are generated, leading to the emotion (outrage at "property" disobeying its owner).

There's not much deliberate careful thought, but there are a lot of thoughts, mainly automatic.

Women as property. Barely-human service creatures who should be punished when disobedient. As PP said, it's global.

well, it is very similar, and there is a massive overlap in the pathology

Their narcissism can't handle being subject to a court case, public shaming and time in prison and that overrides their survival instinct.

Because it's worth it to punish the woman?

I’ve seen this with the breakdown of some friends marriages and relationships. Not to the extreme of this dreadful case thankfully. But the men did seem to behave as though if they couldn’t be together then no one else could be either, and they would make life as miserable and difficult as possible for their ex wife and the children. They made themselves miserable as well (which is why it’s hard to understand it). However, there was control and abuse in those relationships so I think that’s the major factor really.

There was a podcast about the 8 stages of coercive control - I can’t remember the name but it was absolutely chilling. I recognised nearly all the stages in different relationships I know which shows how common it is.

To make sure she isn't happy without him.
To punish her and her family for rejecting him.

The fear that if you kill yourself she'll be free- relieved- even happy.

So you can't just kill yourself you have to take her.

Because you don't want to live if you can't have her. What kind of man can't keep his woman in line etc.

It's cowardice. Pure and simple.
Once you have killed the person who is normally your go to for blame where else can you go? You can't take it back or beg for forgiveness. You don't want to stand trial or go to prison. So what else is there? Some of the more twisted will believe that they and their victim will be together in the afterlife and a murder/suicide achieves this aim but mostly the perpetrator can't face being brought to account. It's cowardice.

The case in question here has been playing on my mind and such interesting insights on here.

My ex partner is currently on remand awaiting sentencing for my attempted murder.

I worry what he's thinking and planning in there. The narcissism has people have said can't cope with punishment nor acceptance that they are the one in the wrong. I know he will consider him being in there as my punishment and that this is my way of ruining his life.

For him he wanted to die when I ended the relationship but wanted me and the kids to go with him.

I have been looked after so well by the police and the courts but I know they can't keep him in there for long.