Feminist / chat? Row with husband about porn

[fourthousandweeks]

DH and I went through marriage counselling last year. Crux of the issue not frequent / adventurous enough sex from his perspective. My perspective = life changes after first child, middle age, perimenopause etc. plus other very very complicated aspects in both our parts.

One strand is that husband was seeking out porn and only fans 'girls' to satisfy his "needs". At one stage this led to a really huge row when we nearly split up. (More complex than that).

Fast forward a year to now and our therapy was really helpful in understanding how our different upbringings shaped the way we view and deal with things and why we trigger each other and how to manage that. However, husband and I still ended up having a row over porn. He argues he thinks porn is healthy and that I'm old fashioned or "disapproving". (I'm a few years older than him so I feel this is a dig as well, though that's petty). For me it's not so much the morality thing but more how I felt as a woman when he was chatting to an only fans person whilst I was in the house.

He said if our son was older he wouldn't "shame" him about porn by saying it's a bad thing. He said if (son) fancies a girl and decides to look at porn then why not. I got livid and mentioned the male gaze before losing any articulacy I once had in a head fog of rage.

Husband is an intelligent Cambridge graduate and says he's read up about porn. I questioned what he's read and he wasn't forthcoming. Doesn't sound like it's anything particularly feminist. He said he was open to reading anything I put in front of him.

I know we need to have a massive conversation but in the meantime what can I signpost him to regarding porn, the impact of it on women, some feminist writing? I'm at a loss and feel I'm being shamed into saying it's healthy but I don't think it should be. He's stubborn as fuck but if he reads something persuasive he will take it onboard over time. I'm desperate to find the decent man I fell in love with.

Please no actual marriage guidance or LTB, as we've invested hours in counselling and I know what's gone on -much much more complex than the issues in this post. On the porn thing how can I articulate why it's detrimental?

There are so many serious studies and articles about the negative effects of porn.If you Google Effects of Porn, or some similar wording, you will be able to find plenty of stdies and articles to counter his view porn is healthy - I haven't seen anything that backs his view up.

E.g. This article was the subject of fairly recent mumsnet thread.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/17/hardcore-porn-choking-and-universities-left-to-tackle-rising-tide-of-sexual-assaults

Apologies, I appreciate this is an older post and I’m coming in on this a bit late. It seems to me that your sole aim here is to educate your husband on why porn is bad. Even if you do this successfully it won’t take away his appreciation of it. It is also likely that there are articles out there that set out the positive associated with porn which he may subsequently try to counter argue with. My thinking, for what it is worth, is why don’t you take on a joint task of working together to research and fully understand the pros and cons of using porn. At least then it is less of an argument/debate and maybe instead a task that could bring you together instead of pushing you apart.

He is never going to change his opinion and behaviour. Are you ok to settle for that?

if he's into reading I'd recommend these books by survivors:
Paid For - Rachel Moran
Exit! - Grizelda Grootboom

and this investigation:
The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth - Julie Bindel

You aren't wrong OP and I'm sorry your H (like so many men sadly) gets off on the rape and abuse of women and girls.

https://sexualhealth.cht.nhs.uk/fileadmin/sexualHealth/contentUploads/Documents/What_is_the_impact_of_pornography_on_young_people_-_A_research_briefing_for_educators.pdf

Would something like this be helpful for him to read? Or maybe more qualitative accounts from young men and woman who have been involved in choking etc, thinking this is what they need to do having seen porn? It’s good you’ve made gains in therapy but this is a very tough one. It’s hard to imagine you feeling respected by him if he cannot develop any new insights into the harms of porn.

Does he think prostitution is also fine? Video pornography is just filmed prostitution.

Some people like to say that porn 'isn't real' or that it's 'just fantasy', but it is real. Those are real women (and men) who are actually being prostituted.

I don't expect that it's great for the viewer, male or female, but that's not the main point for me. It's an industry built on trauma, exploitation and suffering, especially of women.

Completely different issue to masturbation which is healthy, normal behaviour that of course teenagers shouldn't be shamed for. Some people have a hard time separating masturbation and pornography in their minds but they're really not the same thing.

Ask him how he knows for sure the porn he’s watching doesn’t involve rape, underage girls, co-ercion, drugs etc etc. He won’t be able to answer as it’s impossible to know. He wants to watch and wank to something that could be actual rape. I get that loads of people watch it, but to me that doesn’t make it okay.

Hot girls wanted on Netflix, a documentary about the amateur porn industry, grim viewing.

Hardcore a channel foot documentary from 20 years ago.

If he watches that and ever uses porn again dump him.

He could spend every minute of the rest of his life many times over watching the vast amounts of amateur porn made by enthusiastic couples & swinging groups . Porn is not just one thing - it has distinct genres & production environments that has variable range in the degree of exploitation of the performers and sexual violence acted out from some to none.

Income-wise, actual pimps and traffickers will make far, far more money from actual in person prostitution than they could from making videos. Trafficked women being recognisably reluctant and drug-addled, are not attractive performers that can do meet'n'greets at industry fairs, it's nether sustainable nor a lucrative business model.

Given its ubuquity that is not going away - it's more effective to focus criticism on the influential 'rough sex' choking & spitting genres produced by some companies - mostly on the west coast of the anal-obsessed USA. Watching Japanese porn, for instance, a young man is much more likely to learn how to pleasure a woman with toys. And watching French or Italian porn may primarily influence them to buy their partners high quality retro lingerie.

The trouble with condemning screen voyeurism it in it's entirety is that those watching, including women, know that doesn't reflect the diversity of content that can be searched for and found. Obviously how a couple negotiates the use is up to them, and as ever, initially crowd-sourcing advice on a forum such as this is a good plan.

There's actually no way at all to know if what you are seeing is genuinely a situation completely free of payment or coercion, or if all parties consented to have it posted on the internet.

Many rapes, abused women, and even children being abused are on the internet labelled as consensual amateur porn.

How do you know all the fruit you’re eating does not involve vile explotation? All the cheap stuff/clothes you’re buying are not made through forced Labour? Are you applying those same strong principles to yourself or only to your husbands hobby? As a videographer/photographer myself any published material (that includes porn movies) needs model releases, agreements, signed by contracts and in the case of the sex industry photo ID’s to prove age, otherwise you will get your ass sued, that doesn’t mix well with ‘non consensual’.

People should be embarrassed to watch porn. It's exploitation of women. It objectifies women. Trying to pretend it's acceptable, and to shame women who aren't 'cool enough', has been a rather wonderful gaslighting marketing ploy by men.

sorry, but following OnlyFans equals to going to a brothel. Will he argue that its "healthy" too? Your husband is a pig.

He's knows how to research, right?

He can read, and use Google?

If he wants to understand the issues he can find a wealth of information.

The problem is that he doesn't, does he?

He just wants to carry on doing the detrimental thing.

And carry on dismissing you, your feelings, your points, and your greater knowledge, because porn has negatively affected his view of women.

As a videographer/photographer myself any published material (that includes porn movies) needs model releases, agreements, signed by contracts and in the case of the sex industry photo ID’s to prove age, otherwise you will get your ass sued, that doesn’t mix well with ‘non consensual’.

Please google 'Pornhub lawsuits'. Or search the company on BBC News, or other news sites.

Here's one. Dr Rodman Whiten is a very sex-positive marriage therapist who sees both sides, popular with male clients, and she is anti porn because of its detrimental effects on relationships. Eg:
https://www.drpsychmom.com/how-do-you-treat-your-wife-after-using-porn/

“Your husband’s hobby” 🤣

There’s always one.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/27/online-pornography-breaks-french-law-equality-watchdog-france

As much as 90% of pornographic content online features verbal, physical and sexual violence towards women, and a significant amount of violence shown is punishable under existing laws in France, a report by the government-nominated equality watchdog has found.
France’s high council for equality between women and men on Wednesday handed the government a damning report on illegal porn-industry practices, urging changes to the law to prosecute makers of pornography and to take down content in order to protect those who have been filmed.

After more than 18 months of hearings and reviewing millions of videos on the biggest international pornography sites, the report said that in millions of videos, “women, caricatured with the worst sexist and racist stereotypes, are humiliated, objectified, dehumanised, assaulted, tortured, subjected to treatment that is contrary both to human dignity and French law”.
The report said: “The women are real, the sexual acts and the violence is real, the suffering is often perfectly visible and at the same time eroticised.”

This is what he thinks is fine to support? What his son should be watching?

Does he not have an imagination? Why can't he use that?

Or read sexy stories.